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Civ 4 the List: Government & Social Engineering

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  • Civ 4 the List: Government & Social Engineering

    Introduction

    Government is not only the leader's primary tool, It's the supreme organization in every nation. Society is the human network of personal connections, and the norms that can hold a civilization together, or break it. This is the place for suggestions for the implementation of both of these in the game.

    Index

    1. Government ( Government choices, new governments, change of existing government forms. )
    2. Society ( similar to SMAC's Social Engineering models)
    3. Federalism vs. Centralization
    4. SE Proposals and Government Models
    5. Other (Misc)
    Conclusion

    The Ideas

    1. Government ( Government choices, new governments, change of existing government forms. )

    Bring back Fundamentalism, and several of the Civ3:Conquests governments.
    -Brent.

    New governments for the ancient age, like "City state", which would be similar to a republic, but more primitive, and "Empire", which would allow you to control large territories.
    -skywalker

    An assembly with a mind of it's own in democratic governments, that could make some decisions on it's own. (but not complicate the game too much)
    -Stefu

    The ability to fully customize the government, Describing the internal political system of it, and then, if needed, answering the government's democratic institutions, etc.
    -Cras

    The changes of government, should be mostly left for the society itself, and not for the player, while the player could have means dealing with such things, such as supressing it with police, or changing the government's priorities. If all fails, you'll be either be able to peacefully, and automatically, and peacefully switch to the government of the people's desire, or fall into anarchy. You'll also be able to try and push governmental change yourself, but that will have to have popular support, as well.
    -Lorizael

    Having government departments, instead of mini-wonders, to describe the functions of one's government. Those will also evolve, and appear over time, and technology.
    -Mr. Nice Guy

    A Libertarian government, that would have no conscription, little taxes, more pollution, but more efficiency, and more happiness.
    -Lawrence of Arabia

    The choices made by the government ( perhaps in the Social Engineering model - Az ) will be used to 'calculate' to what sort of government does a certain government belong.
    -Mr. Orange

    2. Society ( similar to SMAC's Social Engineering models)

    A system of different factors as in SMAC where each factor is on part of governments: like "social values" (religion - science - nobility [goes from European nobles to Confucius] - individualistic freedom - nationalism), "statecraft" (from totalitarian to total demnocracy), "power structure (from centralized to tribal), "economics" (from communism to complete capitalism), "justification of power" and "justice system" (theocratic to complete far west).
    See this post for the complete model.
    -Trifna

    Traits having having a limited lifetime, and being changed either through gradual change, or revolution
    -Sandman

    Having scroll bars define various aspects of society: like market economy, nationalism, religion, etc.
    -Optimizer

    A system similar to SMAC, having the earth equivalents of the SMAC societal traits.
    -Fosse.

    A system that would having two major choices: One of economic systems: like capitalism, socialism, mercantilism, etc. and one of political structures, ala democracy, monarchy, totalitarian. etc. Also, smaller chocies would be available, like treatment of minorities, slavery, etc.
    -Stefu

    Societal interaction - factions and classes in the society that would interact. Their levels would depend on their numbers, their civ traits, and the civilization level.
    -The_Aussie_Lurker

    3. Federalism vs. Centralization>

    Instead of courthouses, have county seats, that would have similar effects to the palace, only smaller, and would be one for every 5 cities. In those places, governors would be appointed, and general happiness level for the regions would exist. If the happiness will become too low, the region could rebel.
    -Trebuchet

    Governor Indpendence - governors choosing a percentage of the next items under construction, that percentage depending on the government.
    -lajzar

    4. SE proposals, and government models

    Trifna's Social Egineering model:

    *system of valors*
    religion - science - nobility [goes from European nobles to Confucius] - individualistic freedom - nationalism

    *statecraft*
    totalitarian [includes king only or pope, depending on "power justification"] - oligarchic [includes king + nobles or whattever else] - moderate democracy [some have more power, like actual democracies] - total democracy

    *power structure*
    centralized - federation - republic - [Switzerland-like] - decentralized [includes anarchist local self-government, tribal local governance...]

    *economics*
    communism - soft-line communism [not following completely] - wealth state - moderate capitalism - complete capitalism

    *justification of power*
    theocratic - nationalist - militarily enforced - representativity - self-governance - nobility - technocratic

    *justice system*
    theocratic - oligarchic - martial - tribal or local - free for all [each locality organized itself as they wish and could]

    Optimizer's system of sliders

    * Market economy: A high value makes industrial buildings faster to build, but it decreases tax income.

    * Gender equality: A high value increases industrial production but decreases fertility.

    * Natonalism: A high value decreases war weariness but decreases the assimilation rate.

    * Religiosity: A high value increases the power of Temples but makes policy changes more expensive.

    * Political climate: A high value increases the efficiency of military police but decreases science.

    * Centralization: A high value makes policy changes easier, but increases the risk of civil war.

    TheBirdMan's evolution of governments

    0 GOVERNMENT_ANARCHY

    1 GOVERNMENT_TRIBAL_CHIEF
    2 GOVERNMENT_ANCIENT_CITY_STATE
    3 NO GOVERNMENT KINGDOM
    4 NO GOVERNMENT EMPIRE
    5 GOVERNMENT_SHAMANISM
    6 NO DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT

    1 GOVERNMENT_TYRANNY
    2 GOVERNMENT_CITY_STATE
    3 GOVERNMENT_ANCIENT_KINGDOM
    4 GOVERNMENT_ANCIENT_EMPIRE
    5 GOVERNMENT_THEOCRACY
    6 NO DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT

    1 GOVERNMENT_FEUDALISM
    2 GOVERNMENT_BUREAUCRACY
    3 GOVERNMENT_ENLIGHTED_MONARCHY
    4 GOVERNMENT_MEDIEVAL_EMPIRE
    5 GOVERNMENT_MONOTHEISM
    6 NO DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT

    1 GOVERNMENT_PEOPLES_REPUBLIC (a lá Paris in the mid 1800.)
    2 GOVERNMENT_REPUBLIC
    3 GOVERNMENT_ENLIGHTED_MONARCHY (no changes)
    4 GOVERNMENT_WORLD_EMPIRE
    5 GOVERNMENT_FUNDAMENTALISM
    6 GOVERNMENT_DEMOCRACY

    1 GOVERNMENT_COMMUNISM
    2 GOVERNMENT_FACISM (police state)
    3 GOVERNMENT_CONSTITUAL_MONARCHY
    4 GOVERNMENT_WORLD_CORPORATION
    5 GOVERNMENT_FUNDAMENTALISM (no changes)
    6 GOVERNMENT_DEMOCRACY (no changes)

    1 GOVERNMENT_COMMUNISM (no changes)
    2 GOVERNMENT_ONEPARTY_STATE
    3 GOVERNMENT_CONSTITUAL_MONARCHY (no changes)
    4 GOVERNMENT_WORLD_CORPORATION
    5 GOVERNMENT_ECOTOPIA
    6 GOVERNMENT_VIRTUAL_DEMOCRACY

    1 GOVERNMENT_PLANETARY_EMPIRE
    2 GOVERNMENT_ONEPARTY_STATE (no changes)
    3 GOVERNMENT_VIRTUAL_REPUBLIC
    4 GOVERNMENT_THECNOCRACY
    5 GOVERNMENT_ECOTOPIA (no changes)
    6 GOVERNMENT_VIRTUAL_DEMOCRACY

    note: every set of 'names' represents names of governments in a different era. ( of course, the governments will themselves change, also)

    The_Aussie_Lurker's class/faction system

    OK, I just thought it might be a good idea to explain some of the concepts within my ideas for Governments and SE.
    First up, Societal Influence is an abstracted confluence of the proportional population of that faction and its 'Political Clout'. It can 'theoretically range from 0-100% (but almost NEVER will!) Influence affects several things, namely:
    i) Revenue derived from taxation.
    ii) AI Governor Choices for a city's Build Queue.
    iii) What Improvements you build; techs you research; Government you have and Laws you pass!
    Secondly the 'Factions' are the various groups which make up any given society. They are:

    1) Labourers. The ordinary working people, whose 'influence' is based on the amount of production in each city, the # of SPECIFIC production enhancing improvements you have and the # of operational mines you have. It's also increased by the number of strategic resources you possess, and how many Civil Engineers and Workers you have.

    2) Farmers. The people on the land, whose influence is based on the amount of food each city produces/turn. The # of Agricultural/Expansionist Improvements, and the # of worked, irrigated fields you have. It’s also boosted by bonus resources such as cattle, wheat, grapes and the like.

    3) Wealthy Elite. The rich and, in some cases, the Nobility. Based on the number of luxuries you currently possess, the number of commerce points you have, and the number of Wealth Generating Improvements (marketplaces, Banks, Stock Exchanges). Also increased by how many entertainers you have, and if you have precious metals and/or gems as bonus resources.

    4) Merchants/Administrati. Those who keep the books, gather up the money and keep the internal and external trade links going. Their influence is defined by the number of commercial improvements, the number of ‘tax specialists’, the number of cities connected to your internal trade network, and the number of active trade deals you have going.

    5) Law enforcement. Your Police and Judiciary. There influence is simply based on the number of corruption reducing improvements you currently have, the number of police specialists, and the number of ‘laws’ that are currently active.

    6) Organised Crime. Speaks for itself. Influence is increased by the amount of corruption in your empire. Also increased if you have a ‘Black Market’, and by the number of Contraband resources you possess, or are currently trading.

    7) Industrialists. These don’t appear until after you discover ‘Steam Power’. Their influence is increased according to the number Production Improvements and strategic resources that you possess.

    8) Religious: Again, speaks for itself. Their influence is obviously based on the number of religious improvements that you have in your empire. It also grows according to your cultural strength.

    9) Environmentalists. This faction doesn’t appear until the discovery of Ecology. There influence is based on the number of recycling plants/Solar plants etc. you have. Also increased by the amount of pollution you have in your empire.

    Of course, your Civ Traits (Industrious, Commercial, militaristic etc) will also effect the BASE Influence of the various factions.

    Mr.Nice Guy's Government Agencies

    Government Agency Technologies
    There are literally dozens and dozens of government agencies in the game, but when you first begin a new game only a few will be available to the player, but only a few are needed in the beginning of the game. In order have more agencies the player needs to first discover certain technologies, such as the Espionage technology in order to have a CIA (for example).

    Government Agency Funding
    You can change the funding for each agency as you see fit, however each agency requires a minimum amount of funding in order to function, but if you use the minimum funding for an agency you will only get minimum results from that agency. In order for an agency to have a larger impact on your Civ you need to increase the funding to a more desirable level.

    Spending
    Having too much funding for your agencies or too many agencies in operation, however, can be very expensive and you may spend your civilization into debt if you are not careful. You must balance funding and turn on on what government agencies you need after first determining the needs of your Civ at the time.

    Micromanagement
    However, since managing government agencies can be a tedious process and is a form of micromanagement, it is strongly recommended that (unless you want to spend hours and hours micromanaging your Civ on your own) you use the AI to help manage this for you. You can, however, only have partial AI management for this feature by checking off which agencies you'd rather manage on your own.

    The Plague Rat's social engineering model

    state: religious <------o-> secularized,
    pluralism: centralised <-o-----> decentralized,
    ownership: private <---o---> state,
    civil/voting rights: the elite <-----o-> all citizens,

    Maniac's social engineering model, and effects

    Liberal/Open/Innovative <-> Conservative/Closed/Narrowminded Society Values

    Liberal/Open/Innovative:
    Faster research.
    Military units used for police duty are less effective or ineffective.
    Espionage missions by other civs against you have a higher chance of success, and they cost less.
    Population of another culture/religion/whatever-concept-will-be-used than your state culture/religion are happier than standard.
    Population of another culture/religion are converted to your state culture/religion slower or not at all.
    <->
    Conservative/Closed/Narrowminded:
    Slower research.
    Military units used for police duty are more effective.
    Espionage missions by other civs against you have a lower chance of success, and they cost more.
    Population of another culture/religion/whatever-concept-will-be-used than your state culture/religion are less happy than standard.
    Population of another culture/religion are converted faster to your state culture/religion.

    Decentralized/(Con)federal <-> Centralized/Unitary State Structure

    Decentralized/(Con)federal:
    Equal and less corruption/inefficiency/whatever-concept-is-used everywhere.
    Less control over tax/science/luxuries allocations.
    Espionage missions by other civs against you have a higher chance of success, and they cost less.
    Population of another culture/religion/whatever-concept-will-be-used than your state culture/religion are happier than standard.
    Population of another culture/religion are converted to your state culture/religion slower or not at all.
    <->
    Centralized/Unitary:
    Less corruption/inefficiency near your civilization's core and/or in cities with a large majority of state religion/culture population.
    More corruption/inefficiency the further away from your civilization's core and/or in cities with a large majority of another religion/culture population.
    More control over tax/science/luxuries allocations.
    Espionage missions by other civs against you have a lower chance of success, and they cost more.
    Population of another culture/religion/whatever-concept-will-be-used than your state culture/religion are less happy than standard.
    Population of another culture/religion are converted faster to your state culture/religion.

    Free Market/Private Ownership <-> Collectivist Economy

    Free Market/Private Ownership:
    Economy bonus.
    Industry/Production penalty.
    Less or no units are supported for free.
    Less control over tax/science/luxuries allocations.
    <->
    Collectivist:
    Economy penalty.
    Industry/Production bonus.
    More units are supported for free.
    More control over tax/science/luxuries allocations.

    Free Trade <-> Protectionist Foreign Trade Policy

    Free Trade:
    Science bonus.
    Trade/Economy bonus.
    Less tolls and tarriffs from trade routes passing through your territory (if the concept of trade routes actually running over the map is included).
    Unhappier people.
    Industry/Production penalty.
    <->
    Protectionist:
    Science penalty.
    Trade/Economy penalty.
    More tolls and tariffs from trade routes passing through your territory (if the concept of trade routes actually running over the map is included).
    Happier people.
    Industry/Production bonus.

    Nomad/Expansionist/Colonist <-> Sedentary/Urban Lifestyle

    Nomad/Expansionist/Colonist:
    Morale/Experience/Whatever-concept-is-used bonus.
    More units are supported for free.
    Combat bonus against barbarians, pirates etcetera.
    Military units and settlers cost less to produce.
    Economy and/or production penalty.
    <->
    Sedentary/Urban:
    Morale/Experience/Whatever-concept-is-used penalty.
    Less or no units are supported for free.
    Combat penalty against barbarians, pirates etcetera.
    Military units and settlers cost more to produce.
    Economy and/or production bonus.

    The_Aussie_Lurker's SE sliders

    Liberty: effects how free your people are-to speak and assemble in public (and private, for that matter). The lower you set this, the more 'content' people you will have in your civ-but the greater the chance of a revolt and/or civil war when the people DO become unhappy. Also reduces the chance of spy missions against your civ.

    Secularity: effects the degree to which religion dictates politics and social policy. The lower you set this, the less effective religious improvements become, but the less likely you are to succumb to a religious schism. Also reduces the chances of a dark age occuring.

    Private Enterprise: effects the degree to which the private sector is involved in your economy. The lower you set this, the less cash you get from company tax, but the greater control you have over what your city can build and what resources you can exploit.

    Sufferage: effects who can vote for the government of the day, and the degree of influence the middle and lower classes have over your policies. The lower you set this, the more direct control you have over your civs domestic and foreign policies-but the more unhappy your make your people-especially labourers and civil servants.

    Legalism: The degree to which the rule of law dominates your civ-and how harsh your penal code is. The lower you set this, the less your law and order budget will set you back, but also the more crime and corruption you will have to deal with!

    Tolerance: The degree to which those of different cultures and religions are accepted within your society. The lower you set this, the lower your international standing becomes. Also, it increases your rate of cultural/religious 'assimilation'-but makes foreign nationals in your civ unhappy. It also reduces your rate of immigration

    Nationalism: Not sure if this one is superfluous or not, but it effects the degree of 'national pride' your people have. The lower you set this, the more war weariness will hit your civ (patriotism is a strong motivator for people during war time), but also the more likely your people are to accept you making deals with civs from other culture groups. Reducing nationalism also increases the rate of immigration.

    5. Other (Misc)

    Have rations, working day, and wages, like in CtP.
    -Filix

    Have managers/ministers that would influence the performance of your civilization in different ways, with new ministers appearing as the time passes.
    -Kramerman

    Having dinasties in monarchies, and similar governments that would modify the civilization, ala EU.
    -Boris Godunov

    Having finer tax and other rates, for example, 7% tax, 3% entertainment. (This would also call for multiplication of production in tiles, which would be less valuable)
    -Roman

    Guerillas and terrorists, that pop up in cases of unhappiness and high corruption. These guerillas will be stealth units, can capture NCUs, and sometimes are controlled by the player who's city got conquered. Their type also differs by the sort of conflict.
    -Lawrence of Arabia

    Conclusion

    Many people desired more customizability for their governments although some feared, as Sandman stated that “The problem with scale-based systems is that they're somewhat artificial and limited to flavourless dichotomies of war/peace, land/naval.” instead proposing different systems, such as a heavier reliance upon civ-traits that become obsolete after a certain time.

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    • Civ 4 the List: User Friendliness/ The Manual / Help Files
      by Trifna
      Introduction User Friendliness- what makes the game easy to play. The Manual- the guides to Civ I and II provided historical information and pull-out charts that gave the game character- will Civ IV have such things? Or will the manual merely be a cheap on-line PDF? Help Files- how easily can the owners of the game find their way around it once accessing the game itself? Summary While this wasnt the most glamours of sections, it is in some ways the most important because without easy accessibility, Civilization would be both unfun and impossible to play. Many ideas which could fall in this area were included in other sections, thus its sparseness can be explained by the universality in where these help information can be put in. Table of Contents The Ideas Conclusion The Ideas Historical Garbage: Forget the historical stuff about units. Most people never read it and it doesn't enhance gameplay.-Kuciwalker (It should be noted, however that a significant group of civvers actually appreciates these historical things and the fact that they are in the game makes it more educational and acceptable to teachers and parents trying to teach their children through learning. It also makes the game more 'intellectual' and provides a good reference.)-DarkCloud Generating Civlopedia Entries IN THE EDITOR:: Make it easy to generate Civpedia entries IN THE EDITOR.-Kuciwalker A "?" to click on and point at elements: I propose that somewhere at the top of the screen there would be a litte interrogation mark to click on. If you click on it, there will be a bunch of very visible interrogation marks each place on the present screen you can get a little text explaining how it works, what it is and everything that's nice to know. This would help many, without even bringing the need of a complete tutorial (though a tutorial can always be nice, and it could use the information put with this interrogation marks system).-Trifna "Hovered on" information: I also think that there should be, in the options tablet, a checkbox that when clicked, will cause the mouse button (when it's hovering over an object) to describe the object in a short description-DarkCloud Improved file save/retrieve: Would it be too much to ask to slightly improve the file save and file retrieve dialog boxes? I feel like I'm back in Windows 3.x with the spartan [...] file operation box. What I would like to see is a page ripped from Microsoft's book on this. First, make the box a little bit bigger. If I'm doing some file operation, go ahead and cover most of the screen. It's not like I'm playing the game while opening/closing a game. Second, I need to see some properties information displayed regarding my file saves. A small thumbnail of my map would be nice. Also, some information like: When was the file created (game started) Date last saved How many civs active Current scores/perhaps a histograph? Whether the game is SP, MP or PBEM Speaking of PBEM. Could a seperate interface be developed for keeping MP and PBEM games organized? I create seperate folders, but I think with minimal effort, a little nicer front end could be developed to make it easy to store, organize and launch games.One last thing...the manual makes it a point to say that it doesn't store email addresses. This is a pretty simple thing that would help the player tremendously.-Shogun Gunner Using the standard Windows open-file box: Why not use the standard Windows open-file box, with an extra part to display some info about the actual savegame you have selected?-Kuciwalker Mini-map, and opening a game in one click: A mini-map thumbnail is essential.I'd also like a way to open games with one click from the main menu.-MattH For a printed manual: The manual should be printed, not digital! I find it much nicer to be able to paw through actual paper.-MattH ...Digital is transient... paper is for all time-DarkCloud Being able to pause at any time: Be able to pause the game in the middle of anything it's doing to look at settings, etc. When it's cycling through automated or AI units. Be able to change orders in the middle. Be able to more easily observe what the AI is doing before it's finished.-Brent Conclusion This section is pretty explanatory and compact, but basically people want ways to easily determine what different sorts of data is on the map and to easily plunge into a game of civ....
      August 31, 2012, 17:55
    • Civ 4 the List: Units
      by lajzar
      Introduction This is meant as a discussion of two principal aspects of the game: what units should appear in the game, and the effects of the various unit attribute flags. Of secondary importance is finding a way to integrate unit statistics with whatever combat method is chosen; it is generally agreed that balancing stats will depend a lot on how combat (stacked vs 1:1 vs other) is implemented. Summary One recurring theme across the various lists for each generation of civ was for a unit workshop, similar to smac. I believe this would be bad for civ. While it could reflect the historical range of units if constrained with a uitably detailed complex ruleset, this rulset would be unreasonably complex for a game, forcing an extra level of management. In addition, it would make it extremely hard to mod the graphics, and all but impossible to create mods with fantasy units. Most people agree that civ3 had far too few units in the game. The big jumps in the capabilities at each critical tech gave an overwhelming advantage to teh tech leader, as well as giving a somewhat disjointed view of history. With assymetric units, there is clearly a strong desire for these functions to be implemented. The main debate is on whether or not units are the best means of implementing these functions. This a decision that should be made on a group by group basis. There is very little desire for religious units or lawyers, but worker functions are evenly split on whether units are the best method to put them in the game. Related Threads Civ4 Idea: Armies instead of Units Stacked vs. Single Unit Combat - The Battle Continues Some sort of unit design allowed? Civ4 Units Table of Contents 2.0 Miscellaneous Thoughts 5.0 Units Conclusion The Ideas Organized by: Lajzar...
      August 31, 2012, 17:52
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