Interview with Jon Shafer, lead designer of Civilization V.

You might have talked to him. You might have argued with him. You may have even called him names and posted barfing emoticons underneath his quotes at some point, and it’s perhaps even possible he did the same to you. Who could’ve known back then, when you were clicking refresh in your Netscape browser and waiting a few minutes for your 56k modem to show you the next post, that our good ol’ Apolyton-member Jon 'Trip' Shafer would one day become the lead designer of Civilization 5?


Jon joined Firaxis in February 2005, after a long and impressive tenure as a modder in the Civilization Community. Jon started work at Firaxis as a developer with Civilization IV, and then worked on Civ IV’s three expansions. Apparently he turned out to be everything Firaxis expected him to be and more, because Jon became the lead designer for the highly anticipated Civilization V. Lucky for us, Jon has always frequented the Apolyton website and forum, and he was kind enough to answer a few of our questions! Our questions are mainly about Jon Shafer transforming from a civilization fan and community member into the lead designer of the game, but also about the Civilization community in general.

1. What's more fun; to play a brand new game of Civilization or to develop it?

That's a tough question. They are both fun and are very different in many ways. Civ has always been great because it's a lot of fun to explore the game and see what it has to offer. The fact that the maps are random and every game plays out differently makes it unique. Designing a game scratches a completely different itch - I've always enjoyed working on games as little side projects, so getting to do this kind of thing professionally is amazing. There are times when I enjoy one or the other more, but they’re both pretty great.


2. Do you still visit the community forums just for fun? Do you feel as connected to the community as you were in the past or is it different for you now that you are more closely involved?

I visit the forums occasionally, but definitely less than I used to. I did rack up nearly 10,000 posts in a few years on Apolyton, so if I stayed as active as I was in the past I don't think Civ V would ever be finished! That aside, my relationship with the community has certainly evolved over the past six years. Everything changes when you have the ability to make the game you want.


3. What do you know about Civ that helps you as a Lead Designer, which you would not have known if you hadn’t been strongly rooted in the community?

I'm not sure I could point out anything specific, but being involved with the community for so long gives you a depth and breadth of knowledge that is impossible to gain any other way. Sometimes a suggestion will be thrown out that sounds like it might work, but that might also break the game in a fundamental way. You can't just jump into designing a game for a franchise as distinguished as Civ without having seen the changes between past versions of the games over a period of time.


4. Being the Lead Designer, did you find yourself having to make decisions that make the fan in you shed a few tears, even though you know it’s for the good of the game?

I think over time the two have blended together. The decisions I make in regards to the design are always to make the game as enjoyable as I think it can be. Each player of Civ is a fan of it for different aspects, so not everyone will see it the same way, but a game has to have a cohesive vision to really shine. You can't plug in any old random feature and expect it to work with everything else, regardless of how good it is on its own. My taste in games has changed over time, but I would only ever design a game that I thought I would have fun playing.


5. Do you think that your Civ-community past has contributed to getting the position as Lead Designer for Civilization 5?

If I could point to any single factor, I think my community past would definitely be the biggest contributor. Being involved with the Civ community in the past and having participated in beta testing were the reasons I was able to get a job at Firaxis to begin with, and they were the reasons I had the experience to be chosen as the lead for Civ V. When I was hired I didn't even have a degree, so the only "special training" I could really point to was the extent to which I'd played the games and my involvement with the different Civ forums. There was certainly a lot of work required to become the Civ V lead (just posting random stuff online wasn't enough by any stretch of the imagination), but my involvement was a crucial factor.


6. Apolyton has released 'The List' for Civ3 in the past, proposed improvements by the fan community. Later releases have seen similar but less organized 'lists'. Did you and your crew read these lists and suggestions again before starting on Civ5?

I often read the suggestions, and while there tends to be a lot of repeated material, you do find some neat ideas. I doubt Civ V would have gone to hexes had there not been such strong community support for it over the years.


7. Are there parts in Civ5 that would not have been there if not for the suggestions from the community? If so, which ones?

As noted above, the hexes owe a lot to people's desire to see them in a Civ game. Outside of something big like that, it's hard to say. My vision for Civ has been shaped so much by my involvement online that it would be impossible to separate that from any other influence at this point.


8. Do you miss the opportunity to troll a bit on the forums or to have a heated debate about the game on the message boards, now that you are a Civ-celebrity (Or do you use an alias for that now?)?

There are certainly times when I think it would be nice to still be an anonymous part of the community. My preferences have kind of shifted over time though, so it's not something I constantly lament. As anyone who's been around a forum for a certain while will understand, things change. You get older and priorities shift and sometimes you just move on. These days I enjoy reading about what's going on more than actually posting, so I think even if you could snap your fingers and Jon Shafer was no longer the lead for Civ V, I'd still end up just being a lurker.


9. Fan communities can be harsh and very direct in their criticism. Does your past help you to deal with this or will it make it more difficult for you?

I've dished a fair bit of criticism in my day, so I'm certainly in no place to ask for mercy now. Ultimately you realize that the reason why people are so passionate is because they love the game, and want it to be the best game possible.


10. The majority of the civ-consumers are single players, whereas the online communities often consist of 'multiplayers'. How do you deal with this?

You factor in everything, but at the end of the day you have to go with your gut. I've spent extensive time playing the game in both singleplayer and multiplayer as well as modding it. I definitely understand the importance of each part of the community. You try to strike a balance as much as possible.


11. We have been told that it will be possible to browse the community from within civ5; how does this work? Is it an incorporated browser, or is it more than that? Does the community have to adapt their websites for this?

Our main focus there has been with our new mod browser. Members of the community will be able to upload mod packages using a special tool to this central service. Uploaders will be able to specify a web link to whatever "homepage" they'd like to specify. The community will also be able to link into this system from the outside, but we'll have more details on that soon. Additionally, there's a web browser integrated into Steam, which will allow players to browse without even needing to alt-tab out. While not a game-changer, it's definitely handy.


12. Is the Apolyton Civilization Site Forum still the start page of your browser?

I couldn’t possibly comment.

13. Critics from the community have always been about the AI, in-game Diplomacy and Multiplayer (technically). Do you think you have been able to deal with these problems in such a way that you will silence the critics?

We could try to make all of the current critics happy and in doing so create twice as many new critics. As I noted above, we just do the best job we can, making a game we think is good and hope that most of the community is on board. I'd like to think we have a pretty good track record, though; we're still always aiming to improve.


14. Do you know about the epic-sized games likes ‘Democracy games’ and ‘Diplomacy Games’ that run on places like Apolyton? If so, will we be able to play these kinds of games in Civilization 5?

After my first taste of Civ, the democracy games on ACS became my strongest connection to the Civ community for quite some time. The amount of time I spent on those... yikes. In any case, yes, I'm aware! These types of games are definitely still supported in Civ V.


15. The Civ community organizes all kinds of tournaments, monthly games, ladders, etc. How will civ5 affect these fan initiatives?

We talked about these early in the project, considering the possibility of pulling them into the game officially, as we did with the mod browser. Ultimately, we decided that the community was servicing these needs pretty well already, and it would take a pretty substantial amount of effort to match what was already offered. Our goal is to keep you guys happy, so we made sure to not make any changes that would get in the way of these kinds of efforts.


16. Do you have any advice to the community, the administration of Apolyton and similar fansites?

Just keep doing what you guys do well. Play the game. Talk about the game. Love the game. Criticize the game. Civ is a series that belongs to the fans as much as it does to the developers and you guys are the only reason we're still making big turn-based strategy games 20 years after the first game came out. Nothing would make me happier than to see someone else giving an interview very similar to this one another 20 years from now.


17. What's the most awesome yet unknown thing in Civ5 that fans such as yourself would like to hear about most?

That's a tough one, partially, because I don't really know everything that's been talked about already! Hands-on previews have started hitting the internet, so that limits my options. Something that has been talked about a little bit is that the role of naval units in Civ V has been given a pretty big upgrade; all boats can now shoot land units and cities. Additionally, coastal cities can be quite productive and valuable, and a single nearby enemy boat can render the water unusable. So, control of the seas is pretty significant this time around. As someone always frustrated by their lack of usefulness in earlier Civ games, I think this a pretty big and welcomed change.

If that's already been talked about in detail, I suppose I could mention that there's a long-running easter egg planted somewhere. It's nothing earth-shattering, but anyone who's been in the Civ community for a long time should get a kick out of it.

Thanks for the interview!

Jon

Thank you for answering our questions!

Rempedaalops and Robert Plomp