I have made it with a woman. Inform the men.

[Guynemer]

"Shelok" would also be acceptable.

[Imran Siddiqui]

There is a reason the most pro-capitalist parties in Europe are called "liberal" and their opponents are the Christian parties or the Socialists. Capitalism is a radical philosophy. It wants to replace traditional morality with a commoditization of everything. It was to turn everything to the market. It wants to allow for prostitution because people should be able to sell their bodies as something of value to fulfill sexual demand. It wants to allow for abortion because there is money to be made there. Capitalism cares not for community. Capitalism has no use for charity.

One of the reasons I do like capitalism is because of its destructive tendencies (though I realize it must be tempered as a result of them). It wants to supplant its own moral code, the code of the market, for traditional morality. A lot of conservatives today tend to be blind to the fact that the moral decay they decry isn't because of "left-wingers", but because of capitalism. Capitalism wants to allow for all if there is money to be made. That is also the reason why old school conservatives tended to be somewhat wary of unrestrained capitalism. Because they saw how it could tear a community to shreds.

I'm thinking that true Christians wouldn't like an economic philosophy that had as its underpinning that everything goes as long as money can be made and everything should be commoditized, including religion.

Well I'm a Burkean, so I'm not from that school Free-market, free trade, free religion.

Burke also declared capital punishment to be "the Butchery which we call justice" and was against discrimination against gays back in the 1700s!

To many at the time and plenty of time thereafter, Burke was considered to be a European liberal (note the term "liberal" again) as by Lord Acton as well as libertarian.

Burkean resurgence in this country was due greatly to Russell Kirk, who had far more import on the conservative movement than the libertarianism of Burke. Kirk was far more suspicious of capitalism and its power over traditional morality.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, because he had no need for money. He believed that the job of the Church was to spread the Gospel to man, not sell stuff. The disciples he instructed to own things in common as they were Christ's servants.

You mean LIKE A COMMUNE!

Christ wasn't an ascetic. He stayed in rich people's homes. He feasted with the rich people. How on earth can you say that he hated them?

He disrupted people making money (ie, moneylenders) like WTO protestors...

[bumfister]

Women are over rated.

[Drake Tungsten]

True, but they unfortunately have a monopoly on vaginas.

[Theben]

No. Not curvy.

Loin's LolSQL is more your type?

[Ben Kenobi]

He disrupted people making money (ie, moneylenders) like WTO protestors...

He overturned a table not because they were selling, but they were selling in the temple.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Anti-capitalist, WTO-like commie protester!

If the temple was fine with them selling there, what is his business in interfering with the free exchange of goods and services?!

[Ben Kenobi]

There is a reason the most pro-capitalist parties in Europe are called "liberal" and their opponents are the Christian parties or the Socialists.

Yes, in europe 'liberalism' means the policies of Adam Smith. Social liberalism or Lib-Dem is more what we see as 'Liberal' in the US.

You cannot be a Christian and socialist. The two are diametrically opposed.

Capitalism is a radical philosophy. It wants to replace traditional morality with a commoditization of everything.

No, hardly. It seeks to liberalise trade, in the sense of removing barriers in the marketplace and in thinking such that the greatest profit can be accrued. Capitalism favours social harmony because of it's consistancy to revolution.

It was to turn everything to the market.

It wants to take everything that is in the market and make it work more effectively. It doesn't care what is there. If there is a demand for it from people, then capitalism strives to realise this demand.

It wants to allow for prostitution because people should be able to sell their bodies as something of value to fulfill sexual demand. It wants to allow for abortion because there is money to be made there. Capitalism cares not for community. Capitalism has no use for charity.

Capitalism is manifestly opposed to abortion, because you cannot sell anything unless there is someone to sell it to. Killing the unborn is like killing a customer, you might make money off the initial transaction, but it's bad business. Capitalism is opposed to prostitution, as it does greater harms to business than it promotes. Sure the prostitute might be better off, but the other businesses are negatively impacted by prostitution.

One of the reasons I do like capitalism is because of its destructive tendencies (though I realize it must be tempered as a result of them).

I don't believe there has ever been 'unfettered' capitalism. It is like Rousseau, everywhere it is in chains.

It wants to supplant its own moral code, the code of the market, for traditional morality.

It doesn't care about morals. It cares about the bottom line. The truth is that morality benefits business. If your code says that promises ought to be kept and contracts ought to be honoured, then businesses can trust one another. The same is true for the rest of 'traditional' morality.

A lot of conservatives today tend to be blind to the fact that the moral decay they decry isn't because of "left-wingers", but because of capitalism.

No, Conservatives believe that moral decay is a fallacy. Man is fallen. Sin comes from the nature of man. It is liberals that believe that moral decay is due to society, and if we only do away with capitalism we will experience a utopia. Conservatives don't believe in that hogwash, and are certain that the reason capitalism is good is because it works. That's it.

Capitalism wants to allow for all if there is money to be made. That is also the reason why old school conservatives tended to be somewhat wary of unrestrained capitalism. Because they saw how it could tear a community to shreds.

your 'old school' conservatives sound much like Marx. Old school socialists have always had a problem with business and seek to skim off the profits. If they can do so through 'social justice programs', they are happy.

I'm thinking that true Christians wouldn't like an economic philosophy that had as its underpinning that everything goes as long as money can be made and everything should be commoditized, including religion.

Where does Smith ever say that everything ought to be a commodity? All he says is that wherever there is a demand, that demand should be met by supply.

Burke also declared capital punishment to be "the Butchery which we call justice" and was against discrimination against gays back in the 1700s!

Evidence please. What, was he gay too? Goddamn, I hate that philosophy.

To many at the time and plenty of time thereafter, Burke was considered to be a European liberal (note the term "liberal" again) as by Lord Acton as well as libertarian.

God. Liberal = principles of Adam Smith. He was the first conservative, there's that word again, to favour economic liberalism in the sense of free trade. He supported tradition, and wrote very strongly against what he saw as the problem of Liberalism, represented in the French Revolution, the overthrowing of traditions which had been maintained in Europe for close to a thousand years.

Burkean resurgence in this country was due greatly to Russell Kirk, who had far more import on the conservative movement than the libertarianism of Burke. Kirk was far more suspicious of capitalism and its power over traditional morality.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. I've read Kirk's principles, and he argues that the promotion of traditional values is not contrary to capitalism, but rather that they are kindred. The best businesses, will operate on a strict moral code.

[Ben Kenobi]

If the temple was fine with them selling there, what is his business in interfering with the free exchange of goods and services?!

"You turn my father's house into a den of wolves"

For it was not the priests who owned the house, but YHWH himself. Selling outside, fine. Selling inside, no. Man that sounds just like the WTO protesters who smash and destroy things just because they were there.

[SlowwHand]

Women are over rated.

You'll fit in fine with all of them that are here. Oppositesexphobics.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just soothing any doubt you may have had previously.

[loinburger]

I always thought it was "I have mated with a woman. Inform the men." Both work, but "mated" isn't really something you'd expect to hear out of Zap's mouth.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You cannot be a Christian and socialist.

Liar..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

Capitalism favours social harmony because of it's consistancy to revolution.

You are warped. It can be said that increase of liberalization of trade and commerce led DIRECTLY to the Revolutions of the 1850s in Europe as the mercantile class revolted for control. If capitalism was for social harmony, there would have been no pressure to cast aside the monarchy. In fact, capitalism created all sorts of social pressures, as people from rural areas came to the cities for industrial work and owners of capital became richer than lords under the old feudal system. These social fissures led directly to revolution over wide swaths of Europe.

It doesn't care about morals. It cares about the bottom line.

Which is itself a moral code. All the matters is money, aka, the bottom line.

Conservatives believe that moral decay is a fallacy.

Just one quote, by Representative B-1 Bob Dornan, an uber conservative (as defined by left or right):

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-04-14/news/mn-54833_1_moral-decay

"Positioning himself as the conservative who can best defend America against "moral decay," Orange County Rep. Robert K. Dornan formally entered the race for the 1996 GOP presidential nomination on Thursday.

Flanked by his family, Dornan, 62, called on his Republican opponents to focus on social issues because "moral decay is rotting the heart and the soul of our country."

""But I will tell you that if . . . somebody is not publicly indignant and saying, 'Stop this,' with our cultural meltdown and moral decline, then I'll show you somebody who doesn't understand the facts," Dornan said. "I'll show you somebody who's a bystander watching the destruction of our country."

your 'old school' conservatives sound much like Marx.

Irving Kristol (after WW2) and Marx, so happy together.

A good deal of Conservatives wanted community values to be more important than chasing profits. How Marxian!

Evidence please.

Langford's official Oxford biography of the man. Burke was against the pillorying of two men for sodomy in 1780.

[Imran Siddiqui]

"You turn my father's house into a den of wolves"

For it was not the priests who owned the house, but YHWH himself. Selling outside, fine. Selling inside, no. Man that sounds just like the WTO protesters who smash and destroy things just because they were there.

Where's the dead? Sorry, capitalism doesn't allow anyone to claim anything without title. And for someone claiming Christianity isn't temporal, well, you need more than some lunatic yelling to claim a parcel of land.

[Ben Kenobi]

Liar..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

They are socialists.

You are warped.

That was the whole point of Burke's argument.

It can be said that increase of liberalization of trade and commerce led DIRECTLY to the Revolutions of the 1850s in Europe as the mercantile class revolted for control.

Mercantile Class? WTF? It wasn't the mercantile class responsible for the '48 rebellions across Europe.

If capitalism was for social harmony, there would have been no pressure to cast aside the monarchy. In fact, capitalism created all sorts of social pressures, as people from rural areas came to the cities for industrial work and owners of capital became richer than lords under the old feudal system. These social fissures led directly to revolution over wide swaths of Europe.

Constitutional monarchy was seen, again by Burke as the ideal, a compromise between absolutism, and between republicanism. It was preferred because, not in spite of it's stability. 1848 had more to do with the usual sparks, famines and unrest. You concentrate lots of people in cities unprepared for it, and you'll get massive unrest.

"Positioning himself as the conservative who can best defend America against "moral decay," Orange County Rep. Robert K. Dornan formally entered the race for the 1996 GOP presidential nomination on Thursday.

Flanked by his family, Dornan, 62, called on his Republican opponents to focus on social issues because "moral decay is rotting the heart and the soul of our country."

""But I will tell you that if . . . somebody is not publicly indignant and saying, 'Stop this,' with our cultural meltdown and moral decline, then I'll show you somebody who doesn't understand the facts," Dornan said. "I'll show you somebody who's a bystander watching the destruction of our country."

He may be a conservative and a classical liberal. This is cut word from word from Rousseau. I'm a fan of Hobbes, not Rousseau.

Irving Kristol (after WW2) and Marx, so happy together.

Kristof is a conservative as Wilson. Making the world safe for democracy? Check please. I'm arguing that the fact that there is a conflict between moral values and capitalism is at heart a socialist argument.

Langford's official Oxford biography of the man. Burke was against the pillorying of two men for sodomy in 1780.

He did no such thing. Here is from his diary on the date, which explains the true nature of his opposition.

"Neglect of the Persons who have the Execution of the Law on these Occasions. It seems the Man was short, and the Pillory was so contrived, that he could not be fastened in it without suspending his Body. He represented this to the proper Officer, but the Mob would not permit any Alteration, and the Man was absolutely strangled"

It's so interesting when the facts come out. I love history.