remember those teenage abstinence pledges?

[Ben Kenobi]

Kontiki:

you seem to be implying that if you have pre-marital sex, that's all you do and that those who have pre-marital sex only get married for sex.

No, it is possible for both of these to occur, but less likely than for the pledgers.

[Ben Kenobi]

Admit to what is, so you can devise ways to change what is to what ought to be that will actually work.

Okay.

Abstinence is the only way you are going to have children wait until marriage to have intercourse.

When 99% of all people have premarital intercourse, and only 88% of the pledgers, the pledge, and abstinence education seems to be working.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So no commie bias in favour of military service, eh?

I'm not a fan of the military. If I had my way, they would all be abolished. Be that as it may, I am still forced to recognize that voluntarily entering into a realtionship that may require you to give up your live is a significantly greter committment than marriage or chidl birth, especially since it's very difficult to walk away from a military committment . . . unless you're the son of a Congressman.

Maturity in my eyes often has little to do with age. I've seen teenagers take care of their parents.

That is not a normal or natural situation. This occurs only where the parents are unable or unwilling to fullfill their rolls.

and why shouldn't you wait? You're already gettin' some. Why marry at all?

Well, let's see. I didn't pledge and I'm married. Would have done it years ago too, if I could have afforded it. I have someone I want to spend the rest of my life with.

The simple fact is, most of us who didn't wait, get married with someone to whom we've found we're compatable. Even if we don't marry, we tend to form life long bonds.

I trust the shepherd more than I would the teachers of today. What is new is not always better Che.

Science is always better than mysticism. Observable and reproducable fact always beats scruffy nomad wisdom.

And how often do both fail? We have had condoms, and birth control for quite some time now.

Condoms have a 99% success rate. Condoms are far more effective than abstinence in preventing pregnancy and stds.

Safe sex does not work. Even their proponents admit that abstinence is the only way that works all the time.

Oh no we don't, because we know that abstinence has an extremely high failure rate. Almost 70% of pledgers have sex before marriage. Thus, their abstinence method failed. They had sex. And when they do, they don't use protection.

Sure there is. Shouldn't you love someone if you are going to sleep with them?

Not necessarily. You don't have to love those whom you sleep with and you dno't have to sleep with those whom you love. Having sex with someone you love can be great. It can also suck poorly. Having sex with someone you are passionate about is best, but passion and love aren't the same.

As opposed to a commie who has already admitted to 'indiscretions' in his youth?

I'm not ashamed of what I did so I wouldn't call them indescrtions.

So why then should children wait for their entertainment? Why not encourage them to entertain each other as young as possible?

Because they aren't emotionally mature enough to handle it.

Well, this is where I say that I pledged BEFORE I was a Christian.

So obviously one need not be a Christian, in order to stop thinking critically.

At least you have a sense of humor about yourself. I can respect that.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Secondly, it's not the pledgers who are the ones resorting to oral sex, many teenagers like the fact that there is no risk of pregnancy, unlike intercourse with the pill.

I want to see the statistics on pregnancies on oral sex!

[Ben Kenobi]

Interesting request since you've been insisting on discussing the theoretical, rather than actual.

I've been doing both in the thread.

My first post looked at the statistics quoted by the above survey, to which everyone snipped, and laughed at.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Condoms have a 99% success rate. Condoms are far more effective than abstinence in preventing pregnancy and stds.

That's only if condoms are always used. If abstinence is always used, then it's a LOT better than condoms.

The problem is "if"

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I've been doing both in the thread.

My first post looked at the statistics quoted by the above survey, to which everyone snipped, and laughed at.

And then you moved into the Benaverse... which is why you're being harpooned now.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kucinich
The problem is "if"

Sí!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Abstinence is the only way you are going to have children wait until marriage to have intercourse.

When 99% of all people have premarital intercourse, and only 88% of the pledgers, the pledge, and abstinence education seems to be working.

But since the primary goal of such education is to reduce STD transmission and unwanted pregnancies, not just to have sexless teens, it's not only a failure, it's worse than teaching protection.

[St Leo]

It seems as though my word hoard is insufficient to describe my contempt for these imbeciles. Suffice it to say that I view them in the same light Slowwhand or Lincoln view PETA or the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.

[GePap]

Originally posted by MrBaggins


And then you moved into the Benaverse... which is why you're being harpooned now.

GASP!

Benaverse? hmmm..have I started a trend?

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Kontiki:



No, it is possible for both of these to occur, but less likely than for the pledgers.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant to say something different, because this completely goes against your position.

In any case, your position is ludicrous. I can't believe you're actually arguing that people that have pre-marital sex would do nothing else except have sex, form no other bonds, and then get married simply because of the sex.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kucinich
Teaching abstinence makes people have sex earlier? Is this some sort of reverse psychology?

That's kinda backwards. Sex education doesn't mke anyone have sex. Proper sex education where the full range of options is presented with accuate (i.e,. not Christian) information is presented results in children delaying the onset of sexual activity approximately a year longer than programs which teach only abstinence.

Christian based abstinence programs are the worst, because they teach outright lies, like condoms are ineffective and can't stop the HIV virus. Thus, when pledgers initiate sexual activity, they don't bother with protection, since "it doesn't work."

Ben, despite the fact that you think pledgers wouldn't b willing to engage in anal sex while simultaneously wiating for marriage, surveys have shown that this is indeed the case. Many pledgers are under the mistaken belief that anal and oral sex aren't really sex an that by engaging in this activity they are still virgins. While thy are certainly less likely to get pregnant, they can still pick up STDs, especially sine they aren't using the protection they were told doesn't work.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not a fan of the military. If I had my way, they would all be abolished.

I would agree with you here. After all, I am a pacifist.

And I agree that military service would be more stressful than the first two.

That is not a normal or natural situation. This occurs only where the parents are unable or unwilling to fullfill their rolls.

Not what should happen, but happens far too often these days.

Well, let's see. I didn't pledge and I'm married. Would have done it years ago too, if I could have afforded it. I have someone I want to spend the rest of my life with.

The simple fact is, most of us who didn't wait, get married with someone to whom we've found we're compatable. Even if we don't marry, we tend to form life long bonds.

And that's why I wait. I want to give this gift to my wife and no one else.

Science is always better than mysticism. Observable and reproducable fact always beats scruffy nomad wisdom.

As opposed to balding russian wisdom?

quote:
And how often do both fail? We have had condoms, and birth control for quite some time now.

Condoms have a 99% success rate. Condoms are far more effective than abstinence in preventing pregnancy and stds.

when used properly

Abstinence has a 100% success rate when done properly.

Thus, their abstinence method failed.

Not through any fault of the method, but the participants.

Not necessarily. You don't have to love those whom you sleep with and you dno't have to sleep with those whom you love. Having sex with someone you love can be great. It can also suck poorly.

Ideally, should one only sleep with those you love, and love those whom you sleep with?

By indiscretions, I meant your critique of mushroom smoking in particular.

Because they aren't emotionally mature enough to handle it.

So then it's not about entertainment, but rather the proper area for intercourse. I argue one should wait for marriage, because it is a better area for intercourse than anywhere else.

At least you have a sense of humor about yourself. I can respect that.

As you do about yourself.

[Ben Kenobi]

And then you moved into the Benaverse... which is why you're being harpooned now.

I wouldn't say that, considering the numbers of those against me.

You are like Ahab, and I am the white whale.