remember those teenage abstinence pledges?

[pchang]

OK, then just don't pay for it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Among those who pledge?

Yes. Marriage is a the third biggest committment you can make in your life, preceded only by joining the mlitary (#1) and havnig a child(#2). Most people are not ready for marriage when they get married. The younger the couple, the more likely they are to get divorced, and people who take the pledge are more likely to get married young than those who have sex before marriage.

I would argue the opposite, that those who pledge and marry early would be less likely to divorce than those who do not pledge and also marry.

Yes, but as with so many things, you don't know what you're talking about.

So divorce is worse than sleeping around?

Much, much worse, especially if there are children involved. The only thing that's worse for children than being in a divorce is being in a dysfunctional family.

So the goal here is to make them wait a year longer to have intercourse?

Having sex at 18 is better than having sex at 17, which is better than having sex at 16, which is better than having sex at 15, etc. The older a person is before initiating sex, the better able they are to process the intense emotions that result from discovering sex. Abstinence-only education results in children having sex earlier with less protection. It is an unmitigated failure by any measure.

Sorry, that is not acceptable.

Other people's sex lives really aren't your business. Who gives a damn whether you accept it or not?

not 'waiting until you feel ready' which just means that if you are horny enough, you should go for it.

No, waiting 'till you feel ready is waiting until you feel you're mature enough to handle it. If we waited 'till we were horney enough, we'd all be having sex around age 13.

You are so clueless when it comes to sex.

[Ben Kenobi]

So what about those people who rush their marriage for the sake of sex? What about those people who pledge to avoid going to hell, rather than pledging for the sake of linking sex with their one eternal love?

If they have a proper understanding of both marriage and sex, they will not rush into either.

[Ben Kenobi]

OK, then just don't pay for it.

No, that's not what the passage is referring to.

Paul cites Christ,

Matthew 19:4-6

"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[1] and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[2] ? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
If they have a proper understanding of both marriage and sex, they will not rush into either.

Which explains why the pledge programs are such abject failures. Christians don't understand sex and they don't understand marriage.

[pchang]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


No, that's not what the passage is referring to.

Paul cites Christ,

Matthew 19:4-6

"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[1] and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[2] ? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

This is directly applicable to divorce, but not sure about the premarital sex thing.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes. Marriage is a the third biggest committment you can make in your life, preceded only by joining the mlitary (#1) and havnig a child(#2).

According to whom? You?

Most people are not ready for marriage when they get married.

Yeah, this has nothing to do with the age of the couple. There are many older folks who are not ready, as there are younger folks.

The younger the couple, the more likely they are to get divorced, and people who take the pledge are more likely to get married young than those who have sex before marriage.

But are those who take a pledge and marry young, are they more likely to divorce then the rest of the folks who marry young? You lack this one point to make your case.

Yes, but as with so many things, you don't know what you're talking about.

So I should go and sleep with someone tonight so that I do know what I am talking about?

Much, much worse, especially if there are children involved. The only thing that's worse for children than being in a divorce is being in a dysfunctional family.

Yes, but is it not worse to bring a child into the world, for whom one is not ready to raise? You presuppose that intercourse does not risk pregnancy.

Having sex at 18 is better than having sex at 17, which is better than having sex at 16, which is better than having sex at 15, etc.

So why not desire everyone to wait until marriage to have sex?

The older a person is before initiating sex, the better able they are to process the intense emotions that result from discovering sex. Abstinence-only education results in children having sex earlier with less protection. It is an unmitigated failure by any measure.

An unmitigated failure?

11% of those who do pledge wait until marriage, a 1000% improvement over those who do not.

I would call that a revelation, not an unmitigated failure.

Other people's sex lives really aren't your business. Who gives a damn whether you accept it or not?

Again, why should the goal be to wait a year, over waiting for marriage?

No, waiting 'till you feel ready is waiting until you feel you're mature enough to handle it. If we waited 'till we were horney enough, we'd all be having sex around age 13.

But intercourse also requires a willing partner, which can be difficult for some horny teenagers.

You are so clueless when it comes to sex.

You think I have always been a Christian?

[Theben]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

That they only sleep with the one they love?

If so, I agree.

No, that they value sex too highly, or not enough, b/c they don't know how to deal with the emotions it conjures. Oftentimes marriages fail because the sex didn't amount to what they thought it would: sex=love, 'obviously' the love is lacking. Someone who is sexually experienced is in a better situation to handle these things.

[Ben Kenobi]

This is directly applicable to divorce, but not sure about the premarital sex thing.

"Two become one flesh?"

I would say that it has everything to do with intercourse.

[pchang]

The statistics are pretty striking. The younger a couple gets married, the more likely they are to get divorced. Age and emotional maturity are a lot more closely linked than most young people are willing to admit.

[pchang]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


"Two become one flesh?"

I would say that it has everything to do with intercourse.

Sure, but you can't stay like that forever. When its over, you must separate. So this let man not separate what God has joined doesn't really make sense in this regard.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, that they value sex too highly, or not enough, b/c they don't know how to deal with the emotions it conjures.

They may not know at first, but is it not better to learn these things with a partner who loves and cares for you than some guy in the other dorm?

Oftentimes marriages fail because the sex didn't amount to what they thought it would:

I would argue this happens less for those who abstain, because they have a basis for their relationship beyond intercourse.

sex=love, 'obviously' the love is lacking.

No, it is not obvious, unless one has already bought into the concept that you do not need to love those whom you sleep with.

Someone who is sexually experienced is in a better situation to handle these things.

Or harder to satisfy, and has been more jaded by the whole process.

[Ben Kenobi]

The statistics are pretty striking. The younger a couple gets married, the more likely they are to get divorced. Age and emotional maturity are a lot more closely linked than most young people are willing to admit.

True, but it takes maturity in order to maintain a pledge. So one could argue that those who do keep their pledge until they are married, would be more equipped to keep a marriage together than those who get married young, just because they want intercourse.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
According to whom? You?

Yup.

Yeah, this has nothing to do with the age of the couple. There are many older folks who are not ready, as there are younger folks.

That's irrelevent. The simple fact is, the older you are, the more mature you are likely to be. Frankly, I don't think anyone under 30 should be allowed to get married or have children. Y'all a bunch of friggan idiots.

But are those who take a pledge and marry young, are they more likely to divorce then the rest of the folks who marry young?

Those of us who aren't stupid eough to take the pledges wait.

So I should go and sleep with someone tonight so that I do know what I am talking about?

No, you should take the stick outta yo' ass and take some human sexuality and psychology and sociology classes. Learn how the world and human beings actually work, and not how some 4,000 year old shepards say we should work.

Yes, but is it not worse to bring a child into the world, for whom one is not ready to raise? You presuppose that intercourse does not risk pregnancy.

That's why we try to teach children about birth control. And if that fails, there's always abortion and adoption.

So why not desire everyone to wait until marriage to have sex?

There's no logical reason to do so, certainly not because some shepard on 'shrooms heard a bush talking to him.

Sex isn't just for procreation. It's also for entertainment. I don't see any good reason why anyone should have to be married to be entertained. Sex is lots of fun, but it's not a reason to spend the rest of your life with someone (unless it's really, really good).

But intercourse also requires a willing partner, which can be difficult for some horny teenagers.

Which is also true about marriage.

You think I have always been a Christian?

No, but you seem to have shut off the critical thinking part of your brain when you became one.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

I would argue this happens less for those who abstain, because they have a basis for their relationship beyond intercourse.

You'll need to back that up, b/c so far I haven't seen anything that makes your theory plausible. I have seen the opposite, in that intercourse is the drving force behind relationships with pledgers.

See you guys later tonight.