Christian business owners . . .

[Berzerker]

Indeed. I think an important part of Christian belief is that Christ takes away the sin of the world (through His sacrifice and resurrection) - how does He do that if He is not God?

god cant resurrect the dead?

Jesus repeatedly refers to his Father who is in Heaven, Jesus is not god

[Kidlicious]

If he did not believe in the creed, why did he take the time to include it?

John Wesley believed that God was eternal and uncreated. If you have any evidence that he rejected these Christian beliefs, I suggest you find some.

Stop talking about people believing God was created you dishonest creep!

I told you, people change their mind. The UMC is a non-creedal church we recite a couple of them but no one condemns you to hell if you don't believe in them.

[C0ckney]

The UMC is non-creedal.

You don't know what you're talking about.

serious question, how does it feel to be part of religion you know almost nothing about?

The basic beliefs of The United Methodist Church include:

Triune God. God is one God in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[29]

Scripture. The writings in the Old Testament and New Testament are the inspired word of God.

Sin. While human beings were intended to bear the image of God, all humans are sinners for whom that image is distorted. Sin estranges people from God and corrupts human nature such that we cannot heal or save ourselves.[30]

Salvation through Jesus Christ. God's redeeming love is active to save sinners through Jesus' incarnate life and teachings, through his atoning death, his resurrection, his sovereign presence through history, and his promised return.[30]

Sanctification. The grace of sanctification draws one toward the gift of Christian perfection, which Wesley described as a heart "habitually filled with the love of God and neighbor" and as "having the mind of Christ and walking as he walked."[31]

Sacraments. The UMC recognizes two sacraments: Holy Baptism and Holy Communion. Other rites such as Confirmation, Ordination, Holy Matrimony, Funerals, and Anointing of the Sick are performed but are not considered sacraments. In Holy Baptism, the Church believes that "Baptism is not only a sign of profession and mark of difference whereby Christians are distinguished from others that are not baptized; but it is also a sign of regeneration or the new birth.[32] It believes that Baptism is a sacrament in which God initiates a covenant with individuals,[33] people become a part of the Church,[33] is not to be repeated,[33] and is a means of grace.[34] The United Methodist Church generally practices Baptism by sprinkling, pouring, or immersion[35] and recognizes Trinitarian formula[36] baptisms from other Christian denominations.[37] The United Methodist Church affirms the real presence of Christ in Holy Communion, but does not hold to transubstantiation.[38] The church believes that the bread is an effectual sign of His body crucified on the cross and the cup is an effectual sign of His blood shed for humanity.[39] Through the outward and visible signs of bread and wine, the inward and spiritual reality of the Body and Blood of Christ are offered to believers. The church holds that the celebration of the Eucharist is an anamnesis of Jesus' death,[40] and believes the sacrament to be a means of grace,[41] and practices open communion.[42]

Free will. The UMC believes that people, while corrupted by sin, are free to make their own choices because of God's divine grace enabling them, and that people are truly accountable before God for their choices.

Social Justice. The church opposes evils such as slavery, inhumane prison conditions, capital punishment, economic injustice, child labor, racism, and inequality.[43]

Grace. The UMC believes that God gives unmerited favor freely to all people, though it may be resisted.

[Ben Kenobi]

Your castigating of other Christians for disagreeing with you on irrelevant and unprovable theological matters is more of a humorous side-show.

1. Fundamental Christological and soteriological questions are crucial to Christian faith.

I confirm this with the Ecumenical councils, all of which were formed to settle issues just like the one we are discussing here. I am arguing that the ecumenical councils are the authoritative source of Christian teachings surrounding these controversies.

I would argue, prima facie, any purported Christian arguing that the question, "is God eternal?" and "is God a created being", are irrelevant questions is in fact, not a Christian.

You're free to call me a bigot - but it's not my writing that puts you outside the line. Talk to people like St. Augustine who argued the same thing I am typing for you here.

[Kidlicious]

Yet, the Anglicans, Reformed, and Lutheran churches all have chosen to use it. Why? Because they believe it teaches the truth about the nature of God, fundamental Christian beliefs.



I am, it's commonly used pretty much everywhere, Kid.

No. it's used by some Christians. You can't even talk to the rest of them without making an ass out of yourself. Indeed, even Catholics probably think you're an intolerant creep.

[Kidlicious]

serious question, how does it feel to be part of religion you know almost nothing about?

Idiot. You're the one who doesn't know anything. Those are guidelines. Most people who go to Methodist churches aren't aware of them, and no one cares.

[Ben Kenobi]

You don't understand how the LDS Church doctrine works.

On the contrary. Every church has it's founder. Mennonites have Menno Simons. Methodists have John Wesley. Lutherans have Martin Luther.

I would argue, prima facie, that any organization with a religious founder that no longer claims to follow the teachings of their founder is no longer identifiable as that denomination. Ergo - arguing that the quote unquote 'modern' Mormon Church no longer follows Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, is an argument that Mormonism as a faith is dead.

I would also argue that insofar as you use the Book of Mormon, you affirm Joseph Smith as your founder, and that includes beliefs that Adam is God. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Either Joseph Smith is a fraud, or he's a prophet.

Using your logic, everything anyone in any capacity in the Catholic Church has ever said is official and eternal doctrine of the Catholic Church. Which is of course absurdly stupid.

This is, in fact, what the Catholic church teaches. Everything that has been affirmed as doctrine by the Magisterium remains the teaching of the Catholic church today.

[Ben Kenobi]

No. it's used by some Christians. You can't even talk to the rest of them without making an ass out of yourself. Indeed, even Catholics probably think you're an intolerant creep.

Do you get your powers through ad-hominem attacks? Should we fear the oncoming power of numbskull?

[Ben Kenobi]

I didn't say God was created you liar.

Yes, you are. You stated that you don't believe that Christ is God. Since Christians believe that Christ is God, and everything that is not God was created by him, ergo you are arguing that Christ is a created being.

That creed says that everyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity isn't a Christian, and isn't saved. You believe in that creed, that's what you believe. So which is it?

I agree with that statement, everyone who disagrees with the Trinity is not a Christian. That includes you, given your statement that Christ is not God. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to prove here, Kidicious, proving to everyone that you don't understand Christianity?

[Kidlicious]

On the contrary. Every church has it's founder. Mennonites have Menno Simons. Methodists have John Wesley. Lutherans have Martin Luther.

I would argue, prima facie, that any organization with a religious founder that no longer claims to follow the teachings of their founder is no longer identifiable as that definition. Ergo - arguing that the quote unquote 'modern' Mormon Church no longer follows Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, is an argument that Mormonism as a faith is dead.

I would also argue that insofar as you use the Book of Mormon, you affirm Joseph Smith as your founder, and that includes beliefs that Adam is God. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Either Joseph Smith is a fraud, or he's a prophet.



This is, in fact, what the Catholic church teaches. Everything that has been affirmed as doctrine by the Magisterium remains the teaching of the Catholic church today.

The Methodist Church is not John Wesley. There is no requirement or expectation to follow his teachings.

[C0ckney]

The UMC is a non-creedal church we recite a couple of them

so completely non-creedal except for the creeds.

Idiot. You're the one who doesn't know anything. Those are guidelines. Most people who go to Methodist churches aren't aware of them, and no one cares.

what do methodists believe, what's a better source? the wiki page of the largest methodist church or the incoherent ramblings of kidicious.

[Kidlicious]

"Yes, you are. You stated that you don't believe that Christ is God. Since Christians believe that Christ is God, and everything that is not God was created by him, ergo you are arguing that Christ is a created being."

You damn liar. How can you argue about this and just lie.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Methodist Church is not John Wesley. There is no requirement or expectation to follow his teachings.

Curious so you're arguing that John Wesley never was a Methodist and that he wasn't their founder? Perhaps you might want to inform the Methodist church of their grievous mistake.

[Ben Kenobi]

You damn liar. How can you argue about this and just lie.

What part of the Trinity do you disagree with?

[Kidlicious]

so completely non-creedal except for the creeds.



what do methodists believe, what's a better source? the wiki page of the largest methodist church or the incoherent ramblings of kidicious.

You're talking to a member of the UMC. I'm telling you we recite the creeds as part of the service on occasion. They are guidelines, like the "doctrine."

We don't believe in them like Catholics do.