Christian business owners . . .

[Aeson]

On the contrary. Every church has it's founder. Mennonites have Menno Simons. Methodists have John Wesley. Lutherans have Martin Luther.

I would argue, prima facie, that any organization with a religious founder that no longer claims to follow the teachings of their founder is no longer identifiable as that denomination.

The Catholic Church has changed their stance on many things over time. By your logic then they aren't Catholic. You're stupid.

I would also argue that insofar as you use the Book of Mormon, you affirm Joseph Smith as your founder, and that includes beliefs that Adam is God. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Either Joseph Smith is a fraud, or he's a prophet.

Since you mention the hypothetical where Joseph Smith is seen as a prophet, in that case the founder of the LDS Church is Jesus Christ. Because that is what Joseph Smith taught, what the Book of Mormon says, and is official LDS Church doctrine.

Adam-God never was official LDS Church doctrine, Joseph Smith was never recorded as having taught it, Brigham Young at best thought it wasn't a pertinent issue in regards to salvation.

This is, in fact, what the Catholic church teaches. Everything that has been affirmed as doctrine by the Magisterium remains the teaching of the Catholic church today.

Your claim is that every Catholic who has ever lived is the Magisterium in and of themselves.

It is funny that you can accept that doctrine has a path to become doctrine for Catholics, but can't even conceive that the LDS Church has a similar system. Just another way that you demonstrate how narrow minded and stupid you are.

[Aeson]

Indeed. I think an important part of Christian belief is that Christ takes away the sin of the world (through His sacrifice and resurrection) - how does He do that if He is not God?

Since you can't begin to reproduce and prove the mechanism by which that supposedly occurred, there are an infinite number of equally valid ways you could come up with for Christ to take away the sins of the world through His sacrifice and resurrection.

It's especially meaningless once you've accepted an omnipotent God as a given. Then any question you can simply answer, "because God ..."

[Kidlicious]

The truth is BK and Imran both have very strange beliefs for Christians. They try to fool people into believing that a majority of Christians believe like they do. A majority of Christians are not post-modernists, and they aren't hardcore catholic traditionalists either.

[Sava]

In any case I'm right.

Not even close.

Have fun hating

I always do

[Elok]

FWIW, this sort of discussion has the completely unwanted effect of my agreeing (in general) with Ben Kenobi and Sava. I consider Christians to be Trinitarians, as defined by the creed developed in the Council of Nicea. At best, I'd consider non-Trinitarians as Heretical Christians - though it's kind of like considering Jews for Jesus to still be Jews.

I don't think it's terribly helpful to argue this particular point. From my point of view, all non-Orthodox Christians are heretics; it is a matter of fine degrees of heresy, and drawing the line at any one point doesn't do much more than divide when we'd do better to unite. I assume other sects and denominations have similar views concerning me and each other. Where does "heretic" end and "not even Christian" begin? Does it matter?

[Sava]

From my point of view, all non-Orthodox Christians are heretics;

At least you got that part right

[Kidlicious]

At least you got that part right

You're a blasphemer.

[Sava]

You're an actual Christian.

Yup.

[Kidlicious]

Do a poll. The blasphemers will give BK and Imran the win.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't think it's terribly helpful to argue this particular point. From my point of view, all non-Orthodox Christians are heretics; it is a matter of fine degrees of heresy, and drawing the line at any one point doesn't do much more than divide when we'd do better to unite. I assume other sects and denominations have similar views concerning me and each other. Where does "heretic" end and "not even Christian" begin? Does it matter?

On the other hand, you can understand why trinitarian Christians may consider non-trinitarians to not be Christians. Someone who doesn't seem to even try to understand should be shown, at some level, that isn't just some strange Ben belief.

[Sava]

Do a poll.

I do have a cavernous anus, but even I have limits.

[Kidlicious]

On the other hand, you can understand why trinitarian Christians may consider non-trinitarians to not be Christians. Someone who doesn't seem to even try to understand should be shown, at some level, that isn't just some strange Ben belief.

You better learn what words mean before you start teaching people and lording over them.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I do have a cavernous anus, but even I have limits.

Tell me more.

[Sava]

my poops are large

[Ben Kenobi]

Literally, He is the Holy Spirit. That should not be hard to understand.

But what does 'Holy Spirit' mean? Are you saying the Holy Spirit is a person or an impersonal force?