Christian business owners . . .

[Sava]

Mormonism is a different religion. It doesn't matter that the founders were Christian. Christianity grew from Judaism. They are separate religions even though one came from the other.

This is a basic fact. It isn't an attack. Any Mormon who wants to be a Christian can do so. Just join a Christian church.

[Kidlicious]

". It was LDS 'official' doctrine until around the 70s"

So it's not doctrine. What an idiot.

[Aeson]

On the other hand we have Aeson- who disagrees that God is eternal and uncreated, and you.

Yah, I disagree, because my position on God is that the God described by Christians (and to be fair, every other religion I've ever been presented with) is simply a fairy tale. But that's not been a point of discussion.

My argument in this thread is that the dictionary definition of "Christian" applies to Mormons. It very clearly does. You can't handle that fact and so keep throwing up strawmen and lies to try to distract from a simple truth.

[C0ckney]

I don't think it's terribly helpful to argue this particular point. From my point of view, all non-Orthodox Christians are heretics; it is a matter of fine degrees of heresy, and drawing the line at any one point doesn't do much more than divide when we'd do better to unite. I assume other sects and denominations have similar views concerning me and each other. Where does "heretic" end and "not even Christian" begin? Does it matter?

as a non-believer who maintains an interest in the idea of god, i think it's useful to have some minimum standards, perhaps that's not the right word, but some basic beliefs that a person must hold to be considered a christian/muslim/whatever. for christians i'd say that the trinity is one of those.

[Sava]

My argument in this thread is that the dictionary definition of "Christian" applies to Mormons.

“Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl

[Kidlicious]

"On one side we have Imran, myself, and the other Christians.

On the other hand we have Aeson- who disagrees that God is eternal and uncreated, and you.

I'll take my chances with Imran that given our vast disagreement that this is not a strange belief."

On the one hand we have people who know how to use a dictionary, and on the other hand we have you and Imran.

[Sava]

more:

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 171

“...the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans. And subsequently the Priesthood was taken from among men, this authority was re-called into the heavens, and the world was left without the Priesthood—without the power of God—without the Church and Kingdom of God.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 22, p. 44



From the sound of these quotes, I don't think the founders of LDS would agree with you, Aeson.

http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/christianity.htm

[Sava]

Seems like this is pretty much a slam dunk.




"Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest.

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 89

Prophet John Taylor (1808 - 1887):

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 167

"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 127

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225

[Aeson]

Mormonism is a different religion. It doesn't matter that the founders were Christian. Christianity grew from Judaism. They are separate religions even though one came from the other.

By the dictionary definition, Mormons are Christians. You can have your own personal definition, but it's no more important than that of a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness or anyone else who wants to make up a meaning for the term.

[Sava]

Prophet Ezra Taft Benson (1899 - 1994):

"This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..."


The founders of LDS have spoken.

Mormonism? Not Christian.

[C0ckney]

Mormonism is a different religion. It doesn't matter that the founders were Christian. Christianity grew from Judaism. They are separate religions even though one came from the other.

This is a basic fact. It isn't an attack. Any Mormon who wants to be a Christian can do so. Just join a Christian church.

i agree wholeheartedly. it's hard to understand why some people are going to great lengths to deny this.

[Sava]

You can have your own personal definition,

I'm following the definition of the Mormon prophets.

[Kidlicious]

as a non-believer who maintains an interest in the idea of god, i think it's useful to have some minimum standards, perhaps that's not the right word, but some basic beliefs that a person must hold to be considered a christian/muslim/whatever. for christians i'd say that the trinity is one of those.

Why?

[Sava]

i agree wholeheartedly. it's hard to understand why some people are going to great lengths to deny this.

I doubt I'm telling you anything you don't already know... but in America, "Christian" = "good".

If something or someone isn't "Christian", then it is "bad".

This attitude is so pervasive in American culture that even people who disagree with the sentiment still find themselves acting as if it is true.

[C0ckney]

Why?

because it's essential to the christian concept of god and his nature.