13-year-olds climbing Everest

[Ben Kenobi]

At no point in history was talking to a 13 year old like having a discussion with a financially independant and educated woman in her 20s. Pretending that we used to be "mini-adults" at a young age is akin to claiming that bone-in-nose savages of the jungle were utilitarian altruists.

You're crossing the streams, ecofarm.

The noble savage presumes that human nature was basically good and that society corrupts human nature.

I'm a Hobbesian. I believe that human nature is fundamentally corrupt. When I say, I believe that human nature does not change, it means that I believe that the maturity of 20 year olds today is no different than the maturity of 20 year olds a several hundred years ago.

That does not mean that I believe a 13 year old is no different from a 20 year old. What I am saying is that wrt to marriage and beginning a profession, is that the difference isn't large enough to treat both of them differently, and that much of the division is culturally, and not naturally based.

You are right that Rousseau argued this as well, but again, I'm a Hobbesian. I believe that the 20 year old is just as corrupt as the 13 year old.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

People today reach "intellectual adulthood" at 13-15.

Not in terms of frontal lobe maturation (particularly the amygdala) and the ability to appraise risks. This is why we have age limits on dangerous activities.

There are numerous medical links available if you're not prepared to accept it as common sense.

[Wezil]

Bah, he still hasn't responded to my question from pages ago.

He's a poor advocate.

[ColdWizard]

Bah, he still hasn't responded to my question from pages ago.

He's a poor advocate.

Was that the stupid one about riding in a truck bed which is not designed to carry passengers? If the kid's going up in shorts and a t-shirt, I will agree with your analogy.

[Wezil]

No actually, he accused me of misstating his position then wouldn't tell me what he objected to.

[ColdWizard]

The whole thing, clearly

[Wezil]

I'm surprised this youth rights group hasn't given him the boot yet. Surely there is a child out there that can do the job better than some old guy.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

That's the elephant in the room, old boy. The very elephant in the room.

[OzzyKP]

Bah, he still hasn't responded to my question from pages ago.

He's a poor advocate.

Heh, as important and influential as the Apolyton demographic is I have other, more pressing, advocacy to worry about. I'll get to it when I have time.

[Wezil]

Red herring.

You have responded to the Poly demographic since then, just not the difficult questions.

Besides, what's wrong with the demo's here? We're choc-a-bloc with children and reduced capacity adults.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Just out of interest, let's have a straw poll. How many people think this quote about intellectual maturity.....

You are right, some people never get there. You are 100% agreed. If people don't get there by 15 then they never will.

....is utter bollocks?

[SlowwHand]

Ozzy is certainly entitled to his opinion, but I can't agree.
Given his position, we should have current minors on Death Row. Do you like that idea, Ozzy? No, a blanket condemnation of the DP is not what I'm asking. It exists. Following your thought process, minors should be included in enduring the penalty phase.

[Ming]

I can't agree either... most of the early 20's people I know are far more intellectually mature than 15 year olds, with many of them even getting better as the reached the mid 20's.

And as far as the DP, maybe if they knew they qualified for it, they would consider their actions more

[Elok]

People today reach "intellectual adulthood" at 13-15.

Blatantly false by any measure. The brain's cells do not finish myelinating for several years after that point--their minds are demonstrably immature, unfinished, even without accounting for the poor judgment caused by chaotic hormones. Oh, Laz already got to this? Oh well, it bears saying twice.

[OzzyKP]

Red herring.

You have responded to the Poly demographic since then, just not the difficult questions.

Besides, what's wrong with the demo's here? We're choc-a-bloc with children and reduced capacity adults.

Difficult questions require me to get out books and look up stats. I'm not like most people here who just spout off a bunch of garbage off the top of my head when difficult questions come up.

Just out of interest, let's have a straw poll. How many people think this quote about intellectual maturity.....


....is utter bollocks?

Much of what we know about our ability to reason and the growth and development of children originated with Piaget. According to him (and substantiated by numerous later studies) formal operational thinking is typically mastered by age 14 or 15. Typically also if one doesn't achieve formal operational thinking by age 15 then it is likely you never will.

You guys also falsely assume that development is only one-way. That we go from a point of having non-working reason to a point of having working reason which we maintain for the rest of our lives. That is absolutely not the case. Our ability to reason grows as we age and then it declines as we age.

Studies by Jan D. Sinnott, C. Tomlinson-Keasy, and N.A. Podgorestskaya all showed that formal operational thinking declines throughout life. Peaking in the middle teens to early twenties.

In a Tomlinson-Keasy study formal operational tasks were given to women in three age groups, average age 11.9, 19.7, and 54. The tasks were mastered by one third of the first group, two-thirds of the second group, and only half by the last group.

Blatantly false by any measure. The brain's cells do not finish myelinating for several years after that point--their minds are demonstrably immature, unfinished, even without accounting for the poor judgment caused by chaotic hormones. Oh, Laz already got to this? Oh well, it bears saying twice.

Hehe, you say "false by any measure" and then only point to one measure. Since when is myelinating the biggest determinant in our ability to reason? Or even a substantial part of our ability to reason?

You can look at physical characteristics and compare parts of the brain between youth and adults and recognize they are different, as studies often do, but no study has shown any direct link between these physical differences and actual behavior or thinking ability. All tests and studies that look at actual people making actual decisions show that young people are capable thinkers.

Another researcher who looked at the mental development of children is Lawrence Kohlberg who studied moral development. He divided our moral thinking into three categories which he called pre-conventional, conventional, and post-conventional. In a twenty year longitudinal study conducted by Kohlberg and his colleagues, they found that most 13-14 year olds had made it to the conventional stage. The vast majority of people never make it to post-conventional, i.e. the most advanced stage of moral development. Most top out at conventional, which is generally reached in your mid-teens.

David Wechsler's tests show that intelligence peaks at age 15 and declines soon after. J.C. Raven's research indicates that intelligence peaks even earlier, at 13 or 14 (after which it declines as well).

Other studies by Lois Weithorn and Susan Campbell compared decision making between 9-year-olds, 14 year olds, 18 year olds, and 21 year olds. The 14, 18, and 21 year olds all made decisions or recommendations similar to that of experts and professionals in whatever field. Only the 9 year olds were subpar. (even so, half the 9 year olds got it right).



To be absolutely clear, if you only look at physical characteristics of people's brains and NOT look at their actual decision-making abilities you are doing a piss-poor job of rating their ability to reason. It'd be like deciding who was a better guitar player by looking at the size of their hands. Sure having a bigger hand is useful for being a good guitar player, but if you don't ever have them actually play the guitar then you can't possibly rate them. It is completely foolish.