13-year-olds climbing Everest

[OzzyKP]

I'd have to see documentation of this, Ozzy. Like Wez said, I like you, but I'm not buying these examples.

4 year olds get handcuffed and arrested in this country for silly things that no adult would ever be arrested for. In most cases young people get harsher penalties for actions that an adult either would never be penalized for or would get a slap on the wrist for.

If you can provide cites for this than all I can say is move to a civilized country.

Ever hear of an adult get locked up for 2 years for talking back to someone? Or for having slipping grades? Or for having friends that aren't approved of? Ever hear of an adult getting arrested for refusing to take a shower, or for drawing on a desk in erasable marker, or for being late to work?

Methinks you are confusing "grounding" with incarceration. They are not the same no matter how many little ones tell you so.

10-year-old tasered for not taking a shower:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/18/national/main5697860.shtml

Arrested, handcuffed for drawing on desk:

http://www.nbcaugusta.com/news/local/83801847.html

Arrested for being late to graduation:

http://volokh.com/posts/1149650425.shtml

4-year-olds arrested & handcuffed for not taking a nap:

http://www.parentdish.com/2008/03/12/four-year-olds-handcuffed-for-refusing-to-nap/

Paddled for having an unapproved prom dress:

http://newsroom.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/05/paddled-for-a-prom-dress/

And around 30,000 young people are sent to abusive behavior modification programs each year for offenses as minor as not getting along with their parents, having their grades slip, cutting class, hanging out with friends their parents don't approve of, smoking weed, staying out late or other minor "offenses". Some accounts of the abuse and death that occur in this programs:

http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Submit_Your_Testimony

http://forums.youthrights.org/downloads.php?do=file&id=156

http://forums.youthrights.org/downloads.php?do=file&id=157

Not that I have the slightest expectation that proving all of this will have any impact on anyone's views here. But this is what happens when young people have no control over their lives, no ability to make decisions for themselves, and are kept completely powerless and beholden to adults around them who time and time again inflict massive damage upon them "for their own good".

[giblets]

10-year-old tasered for not taking a shower:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5697860.shtml

article says the girl kicked the policeman in the groin... do you think an adult could do that and not get tasered?

if you think that's abuse, no wonder you think children are oppressed...

[Jon Miller]

Ozzy, for many things you have sympathy. It is when you go unreasonable with your beleifs that children should have all the rights/etc of adults that you lose people.

I don't know why every group has to go rediculous like this. Both PETA/Greenpeace also have things that I agree with them on. Then they too go rediculous.

JM

[giblets]

And around 30,000 young people are sent to abusive behavior modification programs each year for offenses as minor as not getting along with their parents, having their grades slip, cutting class, hanging out with friends their parents don't approve of, smoking weed, staying out late or other minor "offenses". Some accounts of the abuse and death that occur in this programs:

So a fraction of a tenth of a percent of children in the US are abused every year... now, what do you propose we do? Remove all authority adults have over children? I wonder what percent of kids would do something stupid and screw up their life as a result... anyone want to take a guess?

[Wezil]

10-year-old tasered for not taking a shower:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5697860.shtml

Dealt with by gribbler

Arrested, handcuffed for drawing on desk:
http://www.nbcaugusta.com/news/local/83801847.html

Principal and school board apologized for their mistake. I wonder how many adults have been mistakenly inappropriately cuffed? I hope the examples get better.

Arrested for being late to graduation:
http://volokh.com/posts/1149650425.shtml

I see the allegation but I don't see a source. Some guy on a blog?

4-year-olds arrested & handcuffed for not taking a nap:
http://www.parentdish.com/2008/03/12...fusing-to-nap/

Kid denies he was handcuffed. Why are you believing the word of the parent over the child?

Paddled for having an unapproved prom dress:
http://newsroom.blogs.cnn.com/2010/0...-a-prom-dress/

Not enough info there to form any kind of opinion.

And around 30,000 young people are sent to abusive behavior modification programs each year for offenses as minor as not getting along with their parents, having their grades slip, cutting class, hanging out with friends their parents don't approve of, smoking weed, staying out late or other minor "offenses". Some accounts of the abuse and death that occur in this programs:

http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/i...Your_Testimony

A list of names.

http://forums.youthrights.org/downlo...do=file&id=156

?

http://forums.youthrights.org/downlo...do=file&id=157

Another position statement from your organisation?

Not that I have the slightest expectation that proving all of this will have any impact on anyone's views here. But this is what happens when young people have no control over their lives, no ability to make decisions for themselves, and are kept completely powerless and beholden to adults around them who time and time again inflict massive damage upon them "for their own good".

I checked all your links (something I will rarely do at Poly) and remain a long way from convinced. Your best link was the first one where all involved admit they screwed up. This is your evidence? A few caregivers may have gone "off the path"?

As was pointed out - what do you think will happen with child mortality numbers if we put the kids in charge?

[OzzyKP]

Ozzy, for many things you have sympathy. It is when you go unreasonable with your beleifs that children should have all the rights/etc of adults that you lose people.

I don't know why every group has to go rediculous like this. Both PETA/Greenpeace also have things that I agree with them on. Then they too go rediculous.

JM

Nothing I said is unreasonable. The trouble is there seems to be a wide gulf between the reasonable things I say and the extreme things people hear.

I say "lets lower the voting age to 16" and people here seem to hear "Ozzy wants 5 year olds sitting in the white house". I say "this 13 year old seems to be a skilled mountaineer and, together with his parents, has given careful thought to this endeavor and since they are taking proper precautions he should be allowed to go." And you all hear "Ozzy thinks we should leave a trail of millions of dead children on the slopes of Mt. Everest."

As for why people continue to try to make me out to be some boogeyman and refuse to read the actual words I type and instead make up their own fantasies about my positions I have no idea.

[OzzyKP]

article says the girl kicked the policeman in the groin... do you think an adult could do that and not get tasered?

if you think that's abuse, no wonder you think children are oppressed...

Big strong police man can't deal with a 10-year-old girl without using a taser? Are you actually serious? Police need to use the minimum amount of force necessary to control a situation. Are you telling me some big 200 lb, trained officer isn't able to restrain this little girl another way?

If not he has no business being a police officer and needs to find a new job.

Not to mention that he had no business being there in the first place.

[Elok]

FunFact: Tobacco companies rely on teen smokers, as most people who smoke start as teenagers.

FunFact: Tobacco is possibly the stupidest damned drug on Earth: an unremarkable mild stimulant, the use of which quickly leads to physiological addiction, bad smell, poor physical fitness, then eventually to cancer and/or emphysema. To top it off, tobacco is at present ludicrously expensive thanks to taxes we put on it because it's regarded as a disgusting vice by most people.

FunFact: People at fifteen are just as intelligent and capable of good judgment as people at twenty-five.

Oh, dear, one of those three just doesn't seem to fit in, does it?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

I say "this 13 year old seems to be a skilled mountaineer and, together with his parents, has given careful thought to this endeavor and since they are taking proper precautions he should be allowed to go."

By "proper precautions" do you mean taking the easiest and safest route, and with an experienced professional guide leading the expedition?

Because they're not doing either of those. As has already been pointed out.

[ColdWizard]

i've met very mature young people that make errors in judgement because they don't have the bandwidth of experience to back them up. you can take the most mature 13 year old possible, and they will make mistakes that a 26 year old won't because of this lack of bandwidth.

god knows i did some pretty foolish stuff in my late teens and early twenties.

Without the errors where does the experience come from?

[self biased]

exactly my point.

[Ben Kenobi]

It wasn't until I lived longer, started understanding what my life was worth, and what pain and fear really felt like, that I reassessed it. Most of us do- stupid/criminal behaviour in adolescents is often grown out of.

Fair enough, but lets not let the fears of older people stop others from challenging themselves. I'm young enough to remember what that was like, and what I managed to accomplish because I didn't have a little voice in the back of my head telling me it was crazy.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

By "the fears of older people" do you mean "entirely rational concerns about death and maiming"?

[self biased]

ben, there's a huge difference between insecurity and perfectly sensible fear of dying.

[Ben Kenobi]

By "the fears of older people" do you mean "entirely rational concerns about death and maiming"?

Yes, that, but also fears of other things as well. People are less likely to challenge themselves as they get older, for the same reason they pick up a healthy fear of death. Of course they are always exceptions to this rule.

I'm pretty sure we've all done 'crazy' things in the past, and I'm also pretty sure some of those were the best moments of our lives. I know mine were the same.