13-year-olds climbing Everest

[monolith94]

Ozzy is certainly entitled to his opinion, but I can't agree.
Given his position, we should have current minors on Death Row. Do you like that idea, Ozzy? No, a blanket condemnation of the DP is not what I'm asking. It exists. Following your thought process, minors should be included in enduring the penalty phase.

Climbing a mountain is a bit different than taking a person's life, just as suicide is different than murder. I support a person's right to do with their life as they will, whether they wish to end it (or risk it climbing a mountain) or otherwise. So long as they're not infringing on the rights of other human beings. That said, we as a society have a right to provide support networks to try to convince the depressed and the risktakers to live life more normally and fruitfully.

[giblets]

Climbing a mountain is a bit different than taking a person's life, just as suicide is different than murder. I support a person's right to do with their life as they will, whether they wish to end it (or risk it climbing a mountain) or otherwise. So long as they're not infringing on the rights of other human beings. That said, we as a society have a right to provide support networks to try to convince the depressed and the risktakers to live life more normally and fruitfully.

You can't argue that children who commit crimes should be treated differently from adults without recognizing that children shouldn't be considered fully responsible for their actions...

Someone might be willing to risk their life when they're 13 but unwilling once they're an adult with fully developed reasoning capabilities. Why let their 13 year old self deny their adult self the "right to do with their life as they will"?

[Ecofarm]

Ancient texts, for the most part.

When children (and some adults) are presented with situations out of their immediate experience, they turn to rules they have learned from external authorities for answers, rather than to their own internal voice. Therefore, young children base their answers on rules of "right" and "wrong" they have learned from parents and teachers (Stages 1 and 2 according to Kohlberg's theory). If young children are presented with situations familiar to them, on the other hand, they often show care and concern for others, basing their moral choices on the desire to share the good and maintain harmonious relations, placing them in Stage 3 or 4 (which Kohlberg claimed was impossible at their age)...

According to Kohlberg's upper-class Western view of moral reasoning, communitarian morality is doomed to rest forever at a lower stage of development (Stages 3 and 4). This view disregards the possibility that communitarian morality may be as advanced as individualistic morality, if not more so...

Stage 6 reasoning was never substantiated in interviews; Kohlberg created it as an "ideal" and pointed to examples such as Gandhi to support its existence. After a tremendous amount of criticism over the fact that Stage 6 was purely hypothetical, Kohlberg removed it from the empirical stages but retained it as a "theoretical construct in the realm of philosophical speculation." Despite equally heavy criticism, Kohlberg refused to remove Stage 5 from his system.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2602/is_0003/ai_2602000337/pg_3/?tag=content;col1

Wechsler never lost sight of the limitations of his intelligence tests. Although his tests often are interpreted as a clear measure of intelligence, Wechsler himself believed that they were useful only in conjunction with other clinical measurements. To Wechsler, assessments were far superior to mere testing.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2699/is_0006/ai_2699000651/?tag=content;col1

J. C. Raven did racist IQ studies on Africa.

The vast literature on IQ testing with the Raven's tests in Africa does not support James Watson's pessimism concerning the prospects of Africa. It is true that Africans show lower average IQs as compared to contemporary western norms, although the IQ gap is substantially smaller than Lynn (and Vanhanen) have maintained. More importantly, there is little scientific basis for the assertion that the observed lower IQs of Africans are evidence of lower levels of general intelligence or g. The validity of the Raven's tests among Africans needs to be studied further before these tests can be used to assess Africans' cognitive ability in educational and professional settings.

http://users.fmg.uva.nl/jwicherts/wichertsRavenAfr2010.pdf

Can you cite the Lois Weithorn and Susan Campbell study?

Remember, kids, just because something comes from a book does not make it true (especially if the book is circa mid-1900s).

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

You guys also falsely assume that development is only one-way. That we go from a point of having non-working reason to a point of having working reason which we maintain for the rest of our lives. That is absolutely not the case. Our ability to reason grows as we age and then it declines as we age.

Nobody's made that claim. Why not focus on the arguments actually being made?

For the record, I'd be the first to suggest that anyone whose reasoning has been impaired by senile dementia shouldn't be allowed to climb Everest.

Studies by Jan D. Sinnott, C. Tomlinson-Keasy, and N.A. Podgorestskaya all showed that formal operational thinking declines throughout life. Peaking in the middle teens to early twenties.

In a Tomlinson-Keasy study formal operational tasks were given to women in three age groups, average age 11.9, 19.7, and 54. The tasks were mastered by one third of the first group, two-thirds of the second group, and only half by the last group.

Now ditch the studies looking at IQ and task completion, and instead look at the ones dealing with appraisal of risks. The actual ones relevant to this topic.

Here's a starter. There's loads.

http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/resources/pdf/BRAIN.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11377407

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WNP-4FH5K71-2&_user=10&_coverDate=05%2F01%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1308090655&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=23f5462593c8492b295ef81858c9fa51

See, Ozzy- you write about teenagers like they're some sort of mythical unicorn, but you're addressing it to a bunch of adults well aware that they did stupid risky stuff into their 20's. We grew up. According to your argument, that's not possible.

[Ben Kenobi]

Someone might be willing to risk their life when they're 13 but unwilling once they're an adult with fully developed reasoning capabilities. Why let their 13 year old self deny their adult self the "right to do with their life as they will"?

I wouldn't have a problem with charging 13+ year olds as an adult. More rights, more responsibilities.

[OzzyKP]

See, Ozzy- you write about teenagers like they're some sort of mythical unicorn, but you're addressing it to a bunch of adults well aware that they did stupid risky stuff into their 20's. We grew up. According to your argument, that's not possible.

And you are taking your own personal experience and applying that to millions of people in the same age group. It doesn't work like that. My experience growing up is much different from yours, and different from many others. You only see the world through your own experience and when someone (i.e. me) comes along with a different narrative you can't even begin to listen.

So instead of just starting every argument with "when I was 15" I bring actual research to the table. But you apparently refuse to accept that as well. So I'm wondering why to bother discussing the issue with a brick wall, when I'm surrounded by 4 at the moment who'd make for much more interesting conversation.

[Ecofarm]

Besides, you'd rather strike up a stimulating intellectual conversation with a 13 year old down at the local pub?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

And you are taking your own personal experience and applying that to millions of people in the same age group. It doesn't work like that. My experience growing up is much different from yours, and different from many others. You only see the world through your own experience and when someone (i.e. me) comes along with a different narrative you can't even begin to listen.

No Ozzy. I'm not the minority opinion here. I'm not speaking from an isolated viewpoint.

Look at the agreement. Is this just some miraculous convergence of coincidences?

So instead of just starting every argument with "when I was 15" I bring actual research to the table. But you apparently refuse to accept that as well. So I'm wondering why to bother discussing the issue with a brick wall, when I'm surrounded by 4 at the moment who'd make for much more interesting conversation.

You're flatly ignoring the research sources I'm posting. Would you be more likely to comment on them if your wages didn't depend on winning arguments like this?

Mine don't. I have no conflicts of interest here.

[OzzyKP]

You flatly ignored my points about the relevance of brain science vs. actual behavioral studies. You can take all the pictures of brains you want, but if there is no demonstrated link between that and actual mental faculties and reasoning ability it doesn't mean anything.

Now ditch the studies looking at IQ and task completion, and instead look at the ones dealing with appraisal of risks. The actual ones relevant to this topic.

Umm, no.

We are talking about climbing Mount Everest. Every single person in the history of mankind who has climbed or attempted to climb Mount Everest has had a propensity for risk taking. To say that young people are more likely to take risks is absolutely irrelevant in this discussion. ALL people who do this are more likely to take risks. If you think risk taking has any part in this discussion you are frankly an idiot.

The only thing that is relevant here is whether people understand the risks they are going to take. That has to do with reasoning, logic, decision making abilities, competence. That is the area where I provided research and data and you provided nothing.

[self biased]

you're arguing from your conclusion, ozzy.

[SlowwHand]

Climbing a mountain is a bit different than taking a person's life, just as suicide is different than murder. I support a person's right to do with their life as they will, whether they wish to end it (or risk it climbing a mountain) or otherwise. So long as they're not infringing on the rights of other human beings. That said, we as a society have a right to provide support networks to try to convince the depressed and the risktakers to live life more normally and fruitfully.

Like I said, it's not about discussion of your opinion on the DP. The question is, if it exists for adults, should it exist for minors? What I'm hearing is that "minor" doesn't exist. So can this 13 year old boy pay all adult bills or not?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

We are talking about climbing Mount Everest. Every single person in the history of mankind who has climbed or attempted to climb Mount Everest has had a propensity for risk taking. To say that young people are more likely to take risks is absolutely irrelevant in this discussion. ALL people who do this are more likely to take risks. If you think risk taking has any part in this discussion you are frankly an idiot.

The only thing that is relevant here is whether people understand the risks they are going to take. That has to do with reasoning, logic, decision making abilities, competence. That is the area where I provided research and data and you provided nothing.

Time to play another trump card. Here's an interview with one of the previous youngest climbers of Everest.

SO WHERE DO WE draw the line? To help find out, I track down Johnny Strange and Johnny Collinson, the elders from whom Jordan is attempting to wrest the title of youngest Seven Summiteer.

I find Strange at his dad's beachside house near Malibu. Now 18, he lives the life of a teen action hero. He's got the body of a UFC fighter and the chiseled mug of an Abercrombie & Fitch model. And he's got something to prove. "When I was in fourth grade, my teacher told me I'd never amount to anything," he says. "I was like, OK, watch me."

At 12, Johnny talked his way onto a Vinson Massif expedition organized by his father, Brian Strange. "It took some doing to convince the outfitter to let us bring him along," recalls Brian. "To be honest, I didn't think he'd make it to the summit."

Guide Vern Tejas, who led the climb, took extra precautions. "I usually don't have adult climbers rope up on the summit ridge," he says, "but I tied myself to Johnny, mostly for my own peace of mind. I didn't know what the world might think if anything went wrong."

As it turned out, Strange's physical capabilities were the least of the expedition's concerns. Risk liability, however, was an issue. In fact, Antarctic Logistics and Expeditions, the Salt Lake City–based company that operates charter flights to Antarctica, was already formulating a new policy. Minimum age: 16.

Here's the biggest surprise about Strange: Now that he has the record, he doesn't want it. "I hope Jordan breaks my mark," he says. "The thing about the Seven Summits and the youngest records is, I've been around enough real climbers now to know that they aren't important. Telling Scott Woolums"—his Everest guide—"that you've done the Seven Summits isn't going to impress him."

"When I was 13, I wanted to climb Everest," he says. "There was a reason I didn't. I wasn't ready for it. At that age, I would've climbed K2 if you let me. And I would've died. You've got to be careful. You've got to remember that at 13 you're still talking to a kid, no matter what his physical abilities. I'm 17 and I still think I know it all—and at the same time I realize I don't. At 13, you just don't have the ability to employ logic, complex reasoning, and weigh consequences in high-risk situations."

http://outside.away.com/outside/culture/201004/jordan-romero-teenager-extreme-adventure-everest-6.html

See, he's one of those people, Ozzy. And he's saying it's wrong.

Now I know your salary depends on denying stuff like this, but when you're defending adolescent dreams that could leave a succession of increasingly-smaller bodies above 26,000 feet at what point does your conscience kick in?

[Ben Kenobi]

As it turned out, Strange's physical capabilities were the least of the expedition's concerns

So lets get this straight. He climbed Vinson Massif successfully, He proved that not only could it be done, but that it could be done safely.

By the time he was seven, Johnny had compiled the climbing résumé of a middle-aged man, with summits of Rainier, Whitney, Shasta, Adams, Hood, St. Helens, Baker, and 30 of Colorado's 14,000-foot peaks.

At 7. Tell me, Laz, what age do the Sherpas acclimate to the conditions near everest?

Louv is intrigued by this new crop of Iron Kids. "I wonder if it's a reaction against the constraints we've put on our children," he says. "It's almost as if we've bifurcated the experience of playing outdoors. Either you stay inside, or you become one of these superkids who go after extreme experiences in the outdoors. The problem is that there's very little in between

And this is the money quote.

How does he know there is a cognitive difference between 13 and 17 that makes it enough for him to say that the 13 year old could not complete Everest? We don't know. No one has done it, there is no data.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

When I was a kid, I wanted to climb Everest. At 5 years old I heard of the death of Mick Burke on there. When I was 11, I was glued to the news as realisation dawned that Pete Boardman and Joe Tasker were dying on the North-East ridge. I wanted to climb it.

It wasn't until I was 24 and Alison Hargreaves died on K2 that I changed my mind. You see, I was well aware of risk levels, but at one and the same time I had the magnificent hormone-driven impulse to do it anyway. I suspect nearly all ex-teenagers will recognise that. It wasn't until I lived longer, started understanding what my life was worth, and what pain and fear really felt like, that I reassessed it. Most of us do- stupid/criminal behaviour in adolescents is often grown out of.

I know it. Most of those in this thread know it. I can quote many professionals who know it- Lynn Ponton is a good one. Are you going to tell us that this is impossible and doesn't exist?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

So lets get this straight. He climbed Vinson Massif successfully, He proved that not only could it be done, but that it could be done safely.

The top of Vinson Massif is lower than Everest's base camp, Ben.

At 7. Tell me, Laz, what age do the Sherpas acclimate to the conditions near everest?

If you're in the death zone (above 25,000 feet) you are dying. Whether you're a Sherpa or an elite climber like Ed Viesturs or Chris Bonington. You're about 4 days at most away from death.

How does he know there is a cognitive difference between 13 and 17 that makes it enough for him to say that the 13 year old could not complete Everest? We don't know. No one has done it, there is no data.

He could complete Everest.