13-year-olds climbing Everest

[giblets]

Independence? You think those child marriages were the little mini-adult boldly striking out into the world of responsibility?

No, I guess I'm losing focus.

The point is, I'm wondering how Ecofarm knows that people in every society mature at the same pace...

[OzzyKP]

Independence? You think those child marriages were the little mini-adult boldly striking out into the world of responsibility?

Looks like I missed a lot of discussion here, but it seems there are two points here. In most cases child marriages is coercive and wrong. It is done because the family insists on it, or an older man insists on marrying some too young girl, etc.

This is different from the fact that young people used to have more independence and more responsibility in society and were able to handle it quite well. Indeed in many countries still today young people exercise a good degree of responsibility over their lives.

These are two different phenomena.

[Cort Haus]

I didn't look at this thread at first. When I saw it had hit page 5 I assumed that it was (a) No longer about mountaineering and that (b) Ben would be involved.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Another quote from the "Outside" article for you, Ozzy.

SO WHERE DO WE draw the line? To help find out, I track down Johnny Strange and Johnny Collinson, the elders from whom Jordan is attempting to wrest the title of youngest Seven Summiteer.

I find Strange at his dad's beachside house near Malibu. Now 18, he lives the life of a teen action hero. He's got the body of a UFC fighter and the chiseled mug of an Abercrombie & Fitch model. And he's got something to prove. "When I was in fourth grade, my teacher told me I'd never amount to anything," he says. "I was like, OK, watch me."

At 12, Johnny talked his way onto a Vinson Massif expedition organized by his father, Brian Strange. "It took some doing to convince the outfitter to let us bring him along," recalls Brian. "To be honest, I didn't think he'd make it to the summit."

Guide Vern Tejas, who led the climb, took extra precautions. "I usually don't have adult climbers rope up on the summit ridge," he says, "but I tied myself to Johnny, mostly for my own peace of mind. I didn't know what the world might think if anything went wrong."

As it turned out, Strange's physical capabilities were the least of the expedition's concerns. Risk liability, however, was an issue. In fact, Antarctic Logistics and Expeditions, the Salt Lake City–based company that operates charter flights to Antarctica, was already formulating a new policy. Minimum age: 16.

Here's the biggest surprise about Strange: Now that he has the record, he doesn't want it. "I hope Jordan breaks my mark," he says. "The thing about the Seven Summits and the youngest records is, I've been around enough real climbers now to know that they aren't important. Telling Scott Woolums"—his Everest guide—"that you've done the Seven Summits isn't going to impress him."

"When I was 13, I wanted to climb Everest," he says. "There was a reason I didn't. I wasn't ready for it. At that age, I would've climbed K2 if you let me. And I would've died. You've got to be careful. You've got to remember that at 13 you're still talking to a kid, no matter what his physical abilities. I'm 17 and I still think I know it all—and at the same time I realize I don't. At 13, you just don't have the ability to employ logic, complex reasoning, and weigh consequences in high-risk situations."

[Cort Haus]

How do you build a structure like that (i.e when the fall is more significant). I'd hate to be the workman trying to drive those first pitons in to hold those chains.

Bloke up above, having got there an easier way, securing ropes.

[Cort Haus]

Bens' right. In "the good old days" ten year olds could become drummer boys marching beside the attack column storming the enemies front lines. I'm pretty sure the grape shot didn't distinguish them from the troops carrying muskets. Ten year olds could also become "powder mokeys", carrying bags of gunpowder from the store room to the guns above.

Yes, and children used to be sent into mines under incredibly dangerous conditions. Doesn't mean that it was right.

[Ecofarm]

The point is, I'm wondering how Ecofarm knows that people in every society mature at the same pace...

Because I've been in a few societies and I've never found their 13 year olds to speak and act like adults; and, I have no reason to believe otherwise. Do you have a reason to believe otherwise? Do you presume that, since people did it, then they must have been right (via some double-dose of noble savagery)?

It's like you are asking me to prove aliens do not exist. There were no "mini-adults" societies, now or ever. If there is any change in available information by age historically, we have greater access to more information today than ever before - not vice-versa.


As far as available information goes historically, this "mini-adult" theory is counter-intuitive at least and hysterical at worst. If we then look at property, labor, political and other laws of the time - this idea that people "grew up faster" becomes absolutely ridiculous. People didn't "grow up faster"... they were openly exploited.

[giblets]

Noble savage? No one is romanticizing "primitive" cultures in this thread. Well, for all I know Ben might be, since I have him on ignore.

I'm not taking a side in this. I just wanted to know your reasoning for believing that someone's environment can't affect how quickly they mature...

[Jon Miller]

Independence? You think those child marriages were the little mini-adult boldly striking out into the world of responsibility?

A few were. My most recent immigrant relatives (great great grandparents?) came to the US at age 13/14. They were married at the time. I believe that they came over by themselves (at least my family tree is a dead end at them, I think).

I don't think anyone in western society should be getting married at that age.

Even those who did, probably it was due to circumstances.

JM

[OzzyKP]

Yea, exactly gribbler. It isn't about saying cultures are superior or inferior, just that young people are *capable* of taking on adult responsibility if given the opportunity. If the way we treat young people in western society ISN'T based on biology or anything inherent (like our treatment of women and other groups) then you need to make a strong argument why treating capable adults as children is a good idea. You can't just say that's the way the world works. Because it isn't.

[Cort Haus]

I'll go a step further and say pretty much anyone trying to climb Mount Everest is stupid.

I rarely agree with Kuci, but this is such an occasion.

I've never done any serious mountaineering, but I do a lot of walking and scrambling in the relatively modest hills that pass for mountains in the English Lake District.

Over the last 20 years I've had a lot of scrapes, and have ended up on plenty of vertical situations where the slightest slip could easily have cost me my life. Most of these happened when I was young and inexperienced, but even last year, under unpleasant conditions of driving rain and five-yard visibility fog, my girlfriend had a slip which I feared at first had broken her leg. Fortunately she hadn't, but she could hardly walk and it was eight miles off the mountain. Had her leg gone I couldn't have left her to seek help - we were too far from anywhere, and we both would have faced serious risks from exposure up there all night.

Finally getting back to the Inn several hours later was possibly the greatest sense of relief I'd ever had, and it was certainly the best pint of beer.

My point is that even fairly trivial mountains can be incredibly dangerous, and severe mountains, even for the most experienced and mature climbers are borderline insane. I once saw a programme about an old guy who wanted to climb a peak in Antarctica which was been named after him. He nearly killed his entire expedition to satisfy his vanity.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

If the way we treat young people in western society ISN'T based on biology

It is. Their brains are still developing.

[Ecofarm]

Noble savage? No one is romanticizing "primitive" cultures in this thread. Well, for all I know Ben might be, since I have him on ignore.

Imagining that people reached maturity and (at least) intellectual adulthood in ancient times at the age of 13 is beyond romanticizing primitive cultures. I was kind to call it merely noble savage theory. It's rationalizing the exploitation of children.

I'm not taking a side in this. I just wanted to know your reasoning for believing that someone's environment can't affect how quickly they mature...

I never said any such thing. I said that, on average and with absolute thresholds, people reach adult levels of maturity, independence, responsibility and self actualization after they are finished with puberty. Hell, plenty of adults lack various aspects of adulthood.

Different people have different amounts of various factors of maturity and adulthood in various aspects of life, but no children (on average) have ever been adults (on average) in history.

[OzzyKP]

It is. Their brains are still developing.

The brain never stops developing.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

I think it'll take you siring a few to realise just how ****ing stupid kids are, Ozzy. Seriously- even the smart ones.