Why do they let women be cops again?

[Ben Kenobi]

By the way, what Ben has no way of knowing is that I have fought - and by fought, I mean on a mat, with minimal protective equipment - Judo opponents before. I can tell you for a fact that the techniques aren't really all that effective, even in a CONTROLLED environment, against someone who has some form of training in an actual combat system. I don't mean to imply that I'm a serious fighter, an expert, a bad ass, or anything like that - and that's my point. If even someone of my limited experience/training can dominate a controlled fight against a Judo opponent, what does that say for the chances of a Judo practitioner in an uncontrolled environment?

What belts were they?

[David Floyd]

Speed mostly. The average, untrained 6'2'' guy can be thrown by using his weight against him.

Yes, aikido practitioners like to make this same argument. Seems reasonable, in theory. Real life is somewhat different.

Randori, etc. Understandable, but that is what training is for, you don't have to think, just do. Would you take someone who doesn't know what to do but is pumped by adrenaline over someone who is trained?

Actually, yes. Panic is going to lose you more fights than training, or the lack thereof. It doesn't take training to smash someone in the face when they freeze up because they can't believe they are actually in a fight.

I'm sure. Next time a Muay Thai kickboxer mugs me on the street, I'll be sure to tell you I wish I'd listened to your advice.

Or how about someone who just has quick hands? Dude, I don't care if you take my advice, and I'm really not even giving advice. I'm just telling you how it is.

I'm saying that Judo techniques are part of what makes a very good fighter.

No. Not only is that untrue, that isn't what you were saying. You never said that Judo is PART of what makes you a good fighter, you said that Judo on it's own is a valid combat system.

I've sparred myself with a karate friend. What it basically comes down to is how long do I want to sit there and take punches?

Unsurprisingly, I think even less of most Karate styles than I do of Judo. If you want a more accurate picture, I suggest sparring with a Muay Thai fighter, or someone with cross-training in BJJ and boxing.

As for the black belts, what I've seen them doing and what they are capable of doing. I'm not nearly skilled enough to be able to perform those techniques.

Even granting your point that your sensei is capable of fully executing his techniques in a fight, you're probably 20 years away from that level. How is training in a system that will pay off in a decade or two going to help you now?

[David Floyd]

What belts were they?

A brown belt and a low level black belt were the most significant ones.

[Ben Kenobi]

And your system?

What were the weight classes?

[KrazyHorse]

This is the worst conversation ever. Both of you are going back on ignore for boring the living daylights out of me.

[David Floyd]

And your system?

I have experience to varying degrees in Brazilian Jiujitsu, Muay Thai, Kenpo Karate, boxing, and Tae Kwon Do, as well as experience working out with practitioners of Judo, Shotokan, Wing Chun Kung Fu, Jeet Kune Do, and basic wrestling.

What were the weight classes?

I thought this wasn't important? Why are you bringing it up? You've met me, so you know what my size is (it's basically unchanged since you met me) - none of the opponents were significantly smaller than me, and most were a bit larger.

[David Floyd]

This is the worst conversation ever. Both of you are going back on ignore for boring the living daylights out of me.

Says the guy who gets drunk and posts about math and physics

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, aikido practitioners like to make this same argument. Seems reasonable, in theory. Real life is somewhat different.

I've seen it many times.

Actually, yes. Panic is going to lose you more fights than training, or the lack thereof. It doesn't take training to smash someone in the face when they freeze up because they can't believe they are actually in a fight.

So why would someone who's trained be more likely to freeze?

[David Floyd]

I've seen it many times.

In a real fight?

So why would someone who's trained be more likely to freeze?

Because a big mean looking mother****er is trying to tear their face off.

[Ben Kenobi]

I have experience to varying degrees in Brazilian Jiujitsu, Muay Thai, Kenpo Karate, boxing, and Tae Kwon Do, as well as experience working out with practitioners of Judo, Shotokan, Wing Chun Kung Fu, Jeet Kune Do, and basic wrestling.

Sounds like you have more experience then you let on. Why am I not surprised.

WRT to weight classes, yes it does matter. When you are dealing with trained individuals, of equal training, generally the heavier person will win.

I still content that the most effective fighters will incorporate some Judo into their training, if for nothing but the ground work and the grappling.

Edit, with regards to your comment that it would take 20 years for me to reach that effectiveness, the reason I trained in Judo is because I liked Judo and thought it would help with self-defense. That's all. I'm not looking to be an expert.

[Darius871]

This is the worst conversation ever. Both of you are going back on ignore for boring the living daylights out of me.

No kidding, less talk more babe thread

[David Floyd]

Sounds like you have more experience then you let on. Why am I not surprised.

Yes, this makes me more qualified than you to have an opinion, since I have more experience, and more practical experience, in multiple systems, some more realistic than others. Shockingly enough, those with more experience tend to know what they're talking about.

WRT to weight classes, yes it does matter. When you are dealing with trained individuals, of equal training, generally the heavier person will win.

Equal training, or equal ability? 2 years of training in Judo is NOT equal to 2 years of training in Muay Thai or Brazilian Jiujitsu.

I still content that the most effective fighters will incorporate some Judo into their training, if for nothing but the ground work and the grappling.

If you want ground work and grappling, take up Brazilian Jiujitsu. It's far more effective, and it doesn't worry about teaching complicated throwing techniques to get to the ground.

Edit, with regards to your comment that it would take 20 years for me to reach that effectiveness, the reason I trained in Judo is because I liked Judo and thought it would help with self-defense. That's all. I'm not looking to be an expert.

Hopefully, your opinion WRT the self defense aspects of Judo has been modified.

[David Floyd]

BTW, I'm not trashing Judo, or Judo practitioners. Learning and executing throws is a lot of fun. I'm just trashing the opinion that that equates to reasonable self defense. If you're in it for the fun, then I agree - it IS fun.

[Ben Kenobi]

Hopefully, your opinion WRT the self defense aspects of Judo has been modified.

I personally think you've been dishonest in your earlier statement about having little or no training and having defeated a judoka. That's colouring my assessment of your opinion regarding martial arts that you feel the need to belittle other forms.

I still want to hear what self has to say about this whole issue.

[David Floyd]

I personally think you've been dishonest in your earlier statement about having little or no training and having defeated a judoka. That's colouring my assessment of your opinion regarding martial arts that you feel the need to belittle other forms.

WTF? I don't have that much training, in terms of years in training. I never rose above Blue Belt level in BJJ, for instance. My WHOLE POINT is my limited experience. Jesus, Ben, even if I was completely dishonest, which I wasn't, doesn't change the relative merits of judo.

And if you want self's opinion, he already gave it when he said:

it's a sport masquerading as a martial art. i say this as someone who has nearly fifteen years of experience. anyone who tries to use judo as an actual form of self defense is an idiot.

So, in the opinion of the person whose opinion YOU asked for, you're an idiot.