Why do they let women be cops again?

[self biased]

It's both, really.

it's a sport masquerading as a martial art. i say this as someone who has nearly fifteen years of experience. anyone who tries to use judo as an actual form of self defense is an idiot.

[David Floyd]

What systems have you trained in?

[Ben Kenobi]

What if your old sensei was a 5'7", 140 lb Japanese guy?

You asked for my sensei sir. It just happens to be that my sensei would destroy the criminal. Thanks for conceding the point.

I'd probably take the 5'5'' 100 pound Japanese lady over the average big guy in a fair fight (no weapons).

No, but you seem to think that Judo is effective for a street fight. That's unfortunately incorrect, unless the guy you are fighting cooperates.

It's two things, one in a street fight, you don't know if you are dealing with someone who knows martial arts, unless they choose to tell you ahead of time. By that time, you probably aren't going to be asking anymore.

That's OK; I can't imagine a Judo practitioner being able to fully execute a hip throw without getting punched, eye gouged, or otherwise ****ed up.

Yeah, that's right. Give us contact. Get your hand in our face. You seriously think that we don't know how to deal with someone throwing punches?

Exactly, and no one would seriously argue that shooting at a range prepares you for a combat environment.

Yet that is how you measure proficiency with weapons. In a real combat situation, you aren't going to be getting close enough to go hand to hand.

[Ben Kenobi]

i say this as someone who has nearly fifteen years of experience. anyone who tries to use judo as an actual form of self defense is an idiot.

How so? I want to hear your opinion as to why.

[David Floyd]

I'd probably take the 5'5'' 100 pound Japanese lady over the average big guy in a fair fight (no weapons).

Are you kidding me? Anyone with any actual experience would disagree. Hell, your sensei would probably disagree, if he has any relevant experience whatsoever.

It's two things, one in a street fight, you don't know if you are dealing with someone who knows martial arts, unless they choose to tell you ahead of time. By that time, you probably aren't going to be asking anymore.

I'm not sure I see your point. My point was, most people with martial arts training can only pull off the techniques in the absence of serious resistance.

Yeah, that's right. Give us contact. Get your hand in our face. You seriously think that we don't know how to deal with someone throwing punches?

Not really; that's like a TKD fighter saying they have a way to deal with takedowns. Judo fighters have a way to deal with punches thrown in the dojo, which is demonstrably different than a street fight.

Yet that is how you measure proficiency with weapons. In a real combat situation, you aren't going to be getting close enough to go hand to hand.

Are you seriously arguing that an Olympic Gold medalist in the Rifle event is better prepared for a combat environment than a trained soldier, because they can shoot better in a controlled environment?

Here's the thing: Your average Judo, Shotokan, TKD, whatever black belt will kick ass in a sparring match, but will get their ass kicked in a no rules environment. Hell, even in a limited rules environment such as UFC, traditional martial artists got their asses kicked so regularly they stopped competing.

[David Floyd]

How so? I want to hear your opinion as to why.

How many fights have you been in, in which you were able to use Judo to win? Please describe the circumstances and the opponent in as much detail as possible.

[Ben Kenobi]

How many fights have you been in, in which you were able to use Judo to win? Please describe the circumstances and the opponent in as much detail as possible.

I've been in zero fights since learning Judo. I consider that to be a success. I'm simply interested in hearing Self's explanation as to why Judo in particular is not useful for self-defense.

[David Floyd]

I've been in zero fights since learning Judo. I consider that to be a success.

I agree, but am curious what you base your opinion on, that Judo is an effective combat system, if you've never actually used it in real life?

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you kidding me? Anyone with any actual experience would disagree. Hell, your sensei would probably disagree, if he has any relevant experience whatsoever.

He was very big on teaching people how to defend themselves. His biggest thing with me was to get me to trust my instincts and he had me fight no glasses no contacts.

I'm not sure I see your point. My point was, most people with martial arts training can only pull off the techniques in the absence of serious resistance.

Wow, you seriously believe this? The techniques are designed to work, serious resistance or no.

Not really; that's like a TKD fighter saying they have a way to deal with takedowns. Judo fighters have a way to deal with punches thrown in the dojo, which is demonstrably different than a street fight.

We don't throw strikes in the dojo. We're taught to avoid them and find someway of getting contact.

Are you seriously arguing that an Olympic Gold medalist in the Rifle event is better prepared for a combat environment than a trained soldier, because they can shoot better in a controlled environment?

All I'm saying is that a trained soldier spends plenty of time at the range. That to me is evidence that range time is a valuable tool for weapons proficiency. The reason I don't believe even an olympic gold medallist is as good, is because their training is limited. They only have to be proficient at the one discipline, whereas say a sniper has to be much better.

Here's the thing: Your average Judo, Shotokan, TKD, whatever black belt will kick ass in a sparring match, but will get their ass kicked in a no rules environment. Hell, even in a limited rules environment such as UFC, traditional martial artists got their asses kicked so regularly they stopped competing.

By folks who are well knowledgeable about martial arts. All I am saying is your average Judo black belt will fare well in a street fight provided weapons aren't involved.

[Ben Kenobi]

I agree, but am curious what you base your opinion on, that Judo is an effective combat system, if you've never actually used it in real life?

It's based on my observations of the techniques I've seen used by black belts. Street fights are bad, because they aren't likely to be one on one, and they aren't likely to be weaponless. You can be the best martial artist in the world, but that's not going to stop you from getting your ass whupped by a group of guys with knives.

[KrazyHorse]

If there is a person you can't beat, you're not qualified to be a cop because there is a small percentage of the population that can kick your ass?

Are you so ****ing retarded that you can't parse an extremely reasonable argument?

[David Floyd]

He was very big on teaching people how to defend themselves. His biggest thing with me was to get me to trust my instincts and he had me fight no glasses no contacts.

That style of traditional teaching may have a certain value - but if you fight someone who knows what they are doing, and you can't see them, you will lose. Also, you still didn't adequately explain why you think a 5'5" Japanese woman can use Judo to defeat a 6'2" 220 lb guy.

Wow, you seriously believe this? The techniques are designed to work, serious resistance or no.

OK. Go get in a fight, and try to execute a hip throw against someone who is literally trying to tear your head off. I'm kidding - don't go get in a fight, but the point remains. Dojo training inadequately prepares you for a real fight due to any number of factors, including but not limited to realistic training, ingrained rules, adrenaline, etc.

We don't throw strikes in the dojo. We're taught to avoid them and find someway of getting contact.

Go fight a Muay Thai kickboxer. Trust me, even if you get close, you'll get hurt. Badly.

All I'm saying is that a trained soldier spends plenty of time at the range. That to me is evidence that range time is a valuable tool for weapons proficiency. The reason I don't believe even an olympic gold medallist is as good, is because their training is limited. They only have to be proficient at the one discipline, whereas say a sniper has to be much better.

Exactly! A judo fighter may be good at JUDO, but is probably not an effective FIGHTER. That's what I'm trying to get through to you - a black belt doesn't mean ****.

By folks who are well knowledgeable about martial arts. All I am saying is your average Judo black belt will fare well in a street fight provided weapons aren't involved.

Then explain Tank Abbott. The only people who beat him in the UFC were decidedly NOT traditional martial artists.

Additionally, you are making a claim about something with which you have no experience. Have you even witnessed a fight involving a judo-trained guy against someone else?

[David Floyd]

It's based on my observations of the techniques I've seen used by black belts.

Used against whom? And, are you seriously basing your opinion on something you have merely SEEN?

[Ben Kenobi]

That style of traditional teaching may have a certain value - but if you fight someone who knows what they are doing, and you can't see them, you will lose.

The value is learning to feel the fight so that you don't have to see to understand what you need to do. It's also a confidence issue.

Also, you still didn't adequately explain why you think a 5'5" Japanese woman can use Judo to defeat a 6'2" 220 lb guy.

Speed mostly. The average, untrained 6'2'' guy can be thrown by using his weight against him.

OK. Go get in a fight, and try to execute a hip throw against someone who is literally trying to tear your head off. I'm kidding - don't go get in a fight, but the point remains. Dojo training inadequately prepares you for a real fight due to any number of factors, including but not limited to realistic training, ingrained rules, adrenaline, etc.

Randori, etc. Understandable, but that is what training is for, you don't have to think, just do. Would you take someone who doesn't know what to do but is pumped by adrenaline over someone who is trained?

Go fight a Muay Thai kickboxer. Trust me, even if you get close, you'll get hurt. Badly.

I'm sure. Next time a Muay Thai kickboxer mugs me on the street, I'll be sure to tell you I wish I'd listened to your advice.

Exactly! A judo fighter may be good at JUDO, but is probably not an effective FIGHTER. That's what I'm trying to get through to you - a black belt doesn't mean ****.

I'm saying that Judo techniques are part of what makes a very good fighter.

Additionally, you are making a claim about something with which you have no experience. Have you even witnessed a fight involving a judo-trained guy against someone else?

I've sparred myself with a karate friend. What it basically comes down to is how long do I want to sit there and take punches?

As for the black belts, what I've seen them doing and what they are capable of doing. I'm not nearly skilled enough to be able to perform those techniques.

[David Floyd]

By the way, what Ben has no way of knowing is that I have fought - and by fought, I mean on a mat, with minimal protective equipment - Judo opponents before. I can tell you for a fact that the techniques aren't really all that effective, even in a CONTROLLED environment, against someone who has some form of training in an actual combat system. I don't mean to imply that I'm a serious fighter, an expert, a bad ass, or anything like that - and that's my point. If even someone of my limited experience/training can dominate a controlled fight against a Judo opponent, what does that say for the chances of a Judo practitioner in an uncontrolled environment?