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well i'd say it's like a cross between the UN and NAFTA, the free trade of NAFTA, the ineptness and corruption of the UN 
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"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton -
That would be the War of Yankee Aggression, thank you kindly.Originally posted by TheStinger
Have you ever seen a thread abot states rights and the US civil war
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."Comment
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Yeah, arsetalker. The only UK body you have a vote for is the House of Commons. When was the last time you did vote for PM, the House of Lords or the Queen? Also, the myth that the EP is powerless, you can really scrap that now. It's getting boring.Originally posted by C0ckney
blair is very often economical with the truth, but we can vote him out if we so chose, whereas the only european body we have a vote for is the parliament, which has very little actual power. we can't (directly at least) hold any other body in the EU to account, how is that even comparable with ANY national government?
You can't hold the Council of Ministers accountable as a whole - but that's part of its raole as a federal organ. You can hold the UK minister in it accountable, just as every national parliament can hold its minsters accountable. You could formalise that into a specific control as Denmark and Austria have.
As for the Commission, the EP can oust it. The reason we don't have an indirect vote on the Commission President via EP elections is political, not institutional. Also I'm not sure it would be a good idea, as it would weaken the EP politically.
On what is your knowledge of the EU institutional ond political system based? On the Torygraph?“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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I think you overestimate the role of toilet paper in drafting constitutions. Toilet paper is an output of that process, not an input.Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Particularly when you've had 216 years to come up with fundamental improvements, and you have electricity, toilet paper (hell, even plumbing), and air conditioning to help write yours.
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Why do you assume anyone critical of europe reads the Sun or Telegraph.
As for the EP, it is powerless in theory it might have powers but it won't use them. There would have been more chance of the Queen announcing her conversion to Islam than a UK parliament allowing the accounting practices that go in in europe.Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
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we last voted for PM in 2001, the prime minister is the leader of the party with the largest number of seats in the commons.
it's true we only vote for the commons (nationally at any rate), but that is the body with the most power, and the one which gets things done (i could go on about why it's better to have an unelected second chamber, but that's another thread).
in the EU the two most powerful bodies are not accountable to the people. the council of ministers takes decisions as a group, how can the british public hold french, german or greek ministers to account, 'direct control' or not, we can't. the commission may be supervised by the parliament (which may not be entirely powerless, but is still a lot less powerful than the commission or the CoM), but again we can't hold it directly to account. the whole system is undemocratic.
why would anyone in their right mind want to surrender power to such a wasteful and undemocratic body?"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de BottonComment
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"Why do you assume anyone critical of europe reads the Sun or Telegraph."
I only assume that for people in whose criticism it is evident that they don't have a clue.
"As for the EP, it is powerless in theory it might have powers but it won't use them."
Laughable. The EP is very active on the legislative side. And if it's so clear that it won't use its controlling powers, why did the Santer Commission resign?
And about which accounting problem exactly are you talking?“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Oh yeah they resigned and all got their jobs back.
The accounting problems where by the auditors keep saying the accounts are flawed and money just dissapears and then get suspended.Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
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C0ckney:
"it's true we only vote for the commons (nationally at any rate), but that is the body with the most power, and the one which gets things done"
The most power legally. Politically, the intertwining of the Commons majority and the government means that its powers are quote limited.
"how can the british public hold french, german or greek ministers to account"
How can the devonshire public hold the sussex MPs to account? How can the Bavarian public hold the Bundesrat delegation from Saxony to account? Totally pointless.
"but again we can't hold it directly to account"
And you can't hold your government directly to account.
And that crap about the powerless EP - just ask the lobbyists.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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I'm actually quite surprised the draft constitution didn't have a clause banning criticsm of the EUSpace is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
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HershOstropoler
You make some very good points about the problems with UK democracy and then seem to suggest that those problems are ok in a european contextSpace is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
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Oh yeah that's why Cresson & co is still in the Commission.Originally posted by TheStinger
Oh yeah they resigned and all got their jobs back.
"The accounting problems where by the auditors keep saying the accounts are flawed and money just dissapears and then get suspended."
Who was suspended beyond Andraesen, if that's the thing you're talking about? How are the accounts "flawed"?“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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I don't say they are ok. What I say is that some of them are inevitable.Originally posted by TheStinger
HershOstropoler
You make some very good points about the problems with UK democracy and then seem to suggest that those problems are ok in a european context
But you are using those problems to say let's get rid of the EU, while you aren't saying let's get rid of the UK. I wonder why.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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They are flawed in that they don't know where hundreds of millions of euros have been spent.
As for Cresson look how long it took to get rid of her. The rulling elite in europe don't seem to have a problem with a little bit of corruption here and thereSpace is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
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No, the point he's making is that we tolerate these problems when it's in the context of the UK, but at the same time we cite them as reasons why we won't stand for further European integration.Originally posted by TheStinger
HershOstropoler
You make some very good points about the problems with UK democracy and then seem to suggest that those problems are ok in a european context
EDIT: Cross-post."Paul Hanson, you should give Gibraltar back to the Spanish" - Paiktis, dramatically over-estimating my influence in diplomatic circles.
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