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The EU Constitution and Core Values

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  • #61
    Originally posted by HershOstropoler
    Art I-2 of the draft:

    "The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, liberty, democracy, the rule of law and respect for human rights. These values are common to the member states in a society of pluralism, tolerance, justice, equality, solidarity and non-discrimination."
    I wonder why Stinger and Brits like him have a problem with this?

    I see Turkey will never make it BTW.

    Comment

    • #62
      Arrian: Good point.

      Big ****ing deal. Just why "My point in this thread is that these core values seem dumb." - Do you think they are dumb? Or do you have no idea what you are you talking about?

      The core values should be embodied in the actual provisions of the constitution, so that the following things are promoted... respect for human dignity, democracy, rule of law, etc. When you look at the provisions of the US constitution that you quoted, you can tell clearly what the framers' core values were (some of which, obviously, are not the same as we have now).

      The EU text would not be harmed at all if you had just taken that red marker and deleted that whole article.

      But hey, I don't wanna piss you off, if you contributed that language.
      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

      Comment

      • #63
        Here's the whole preamble...

        CONV 722/03 nat/MS/ms 2
        EN

        Conscious that Europe is a continent that has brought forth civilisation; that its inhabitants, arriving in successive waves since the first ages of mankind, have gradually developed the values underlying humanism: equality of persons, freedom, respect for reason,

        Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, which, nourished first by the civilisations of Greece and Rome, characterised by spiritual impulse always present in its heritage and later by the philosophical currents of the Enlightenment, has embedded within the life of society its perception of the central role of the human person and his inviolable and inalienable rights, and of respect for law,

        Believing that reunited Europe intends to continue along this path of civilisation, progress and prosperity, for the good of all its inhabitants, including the weakest and most deprived; that it wishes to remain a continent open to culture, learning, and social progress; and that it wishes to deepen the democratic nature of its public life, and to strive for peace, justice and solidarity throughout the world,

        Convinced that, while remaining proud of their own national identities and history, the peoples of Europe are determined to transcend their ancient divisions, and, united in an ever closer fashion, to forge a common destiny,

        Convinced that, thus "united in its diversity", Europe offers them the best chance of pursuing, with due regard for the rights of each individual and for their responsibilities towards future generations and the Earth, the great venture which makes of it a special area of human hope,

        Grateful to the members of the European Convention for having prepared this Constitution on behalf of the citizens and States of Europe.
        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

        Comment

        • #64
          Originally posted by paiktis22


          I wonder why Stinger and Brits like him have a problem with this?
          Please, enlighten us as only you know how.
          "Paul Hanson, you should give Gibraltar back to the Spanish" - Paiktis, dramatically over-estimating my influence in diplomatic circles.

          Eyewerks - you know you want to visit. No really, you do. Go on, click me.

          Comment

          • #65
            "The core values should be embodied in the actual provisions of the constitution, so that the following things are promoted..."

            They are. But Art I-2 (now Art 6 EUT) has more than a symbolic purpose. It is also the basis for Art I-58 (now 7 EUT).

            "When you look at the provisions of the US constitution that you quoted, you can tell clearly what the framers' core values were"

            Slavery was a core value?
            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

            Comment

            • #66
              The only part of the whole preamble that is worth a damn is the following paragraph, edited by yours truly.

              In order to deepen the common civilisation, progress, prosperity, culture, and learning of our people; and

              In order to strive for peace and justice throughout the world,

              These united European states declare:
              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

              Comment

              • #67
                Originally posted by DanS
                Here's the whole preamble...
                Horrible!

                Anyway, IMO it can be left out. Along with Art I-3. Of course, having such a preamble means the EU is doomed. Sure...
                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                Comment

                • #68
                  Slavery was a core value?

                  Yes, unfortunately.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                  Comment

                  • #69
                    "Slavery was a core value?"

                    Yup. Came from our European heritage.

                    Comment

                    • #70
                      "In order to deepen the common civilisation, progress, prosperity, culture, and learning of our people"

                      It's our peoples, damnit.
                      “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                      Comment

                      • #71
                        Slavery was a core interest, but hardly a core value.
                        “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                        Comment

                        • #72
                          having such a preamble means the EU is doomed

                          No, having such a preamble does not doom the EU. Arguing about it does.
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                          Comment

                          • #73
                            Actually arguing about it seems to doom DanS.

                            Comment

                            • #74
                              Slavery was a core interest, but hardly a core value.

                              Not so, Hershell. We were willing to compromise on another core value (one man, one vote) for it.
                              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                              Comment

                              • #75
                                Originally posted by DanS
                                Slavery was a core interest, but hardly a core value.

                                Not so, Hershell. We were willing to compromise on another core value (one man, one vote) for it.
                                I think he was responding to me, Dan.

                                Comment

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