Team Info and Contacts - PAL

[Dreylin]

I like sending the whole list too, but would change point 3 to "recently-expired NAP" ... it's not current anymore!

[mostly-harmless]

For the sake of simplicity its a current one that expires T120. No need to load our small print onto PAL.
mh

[Swiss Pauli]

email sent:

Hi Cres,

Thought I'd start a new thread for this, as I feel the topic could run and run...

Our recent experiences with Imperio are more than a little confusing: they show now interest in renewing the Non-Aggression Pact (NAP) that expires in a few turns, they embargo Maths & Monarchy, they sabotage our copper, and now they trade us Currency! They also switched to military mode (barracks and units in most cities) some time back.

As to OBs, it simply wasn't worth including a no-scouting clause as the lay of the land meant that we had a pretty full knowledge of each others territory anyway (aside from the linguistic challenge of sorting out the no-scouting agreement).

Cheers,

Swiss

I left out some details, and kept the tone more 'WTF?' than 'OMG!' as we need to stress their unpredictability: i.e. we can't ever let our guard down with these crazy guys.

[mostly-harmless]

Don't send anything until we have consensus though; we don't want to give away info recklessly.

So what was the consensus?
Swiss, can you please run your messages by the team one last time before sending them out? Especially if there was some lively discussion about it before.
For example I don't understand what the "no-scouting clause" thing is all about in the message you sent. When was that brought up by PAL or in any of our proposed drafts?
And no more mentioning of getting metal for a couple of turns from them?

mh

[sooooo]

Errr ... I think "now" in the second paragraph should read "no". It rather changes the meaning of that sentence

[Swiss Pauli]

Well spotted, sooooo:

Hi Cres,

Typo: the first line should read 'they show no interest', not 'now interest'.

Cheers,

Swiss

[Swiss Pauli]

So what was the consensus?
Swiss, can you please run your messages by the team one last time before sending them out? Especially if there was some lively discussion about it before.
For example I don't understand what the "no-scouting clause" thing is all about in the message you sent. When was that brought up by PAL or in any of our proposed drafts?
And no more mentioning of getting metal for a couple of turns from them?

mh

We have to balance the time taken to reach consensus versus the importance and sensitivity of the topic. We can't take so long to reply to something like this.

PAL mentioned Open Borders because they've seen Lady Godiva in Imperio's lands, so we have to explain why something they'd never accept is perfectly fine between us and Imperio, even when we're saying war is imminent.

[mostly-harmless]

Open Borders are visible from the diplo screen as well, PAL did not mention anything about scouting.

As for the consensus, there were 5 people in favor of sending the whole list (Ruff, Zeviz, Sullla, Dreylin, myself). All of the post within 3 hours of proposing the list. Thats really quick considering how we are spread out over the timezone.
Don't get me wrong, with being responsible for diplo action you are of course entitled to do what you think is the best if time is pressing and no discussion/feedback is taking place. (Like Sullla does as the turnplayer.) For this message though I feel it is not what most people wanted (no mentioning of MC embargo, no mentioning of elephants).

mh

[Kylearan]

Hi,

just for the record, I would have voted for m_h's "full disclosure" style as well had I seen this early enough - looks like it's too late now, ah well. I check this forum only once per day...

-Kylearan

[Swiss Pauli]

Open Borders are visible from the diplo screen as well, PAL did not mention anything about scouting.

As for the consensus, there were 5 people in favor of sending the whole list (Ruff, Zeviz, Sullla, Dreylin, myself). All of the post within 3 hours of proposing the list. Thats really quick considering how we are spread out over the timezone.
Don't get me wrong, with being responsible for diplo action you are of course entitled to do what you think is the best if time is pressing and no discussion/feedback is taking place. (Like Sullla does as the turnplayer.) For this message though I feel it is not what most people wanted (no mentioning of MC embargo, no mentioning of elephants).

mh

I didn't feel there was enough consensus to go with full disclosure as there were various changes proposed from the posters (you didn't actually write that you were in favour of this; indeed, you questioned whether this was what we wanted to do). So I erred on the side of caution, and only gave information they already had.

Also, what has Templars' embargo of MC got to do with Imperio? We don't even know the embargo was Imperio's idea; that's simply our assumption. Templars are quite stupid enough to have come up with the idea themselves

It's clear as day that PAL meant full Open Borders, not the restricted kind of deal that doesn't allow access for units. They can see Lady G in Imperio's terrritory.

[sunrise089]

@Swiss - Right away I want to say I'm willing to sacrifice my ideal preference to keep you in the diplo game, since you're doing a great job. I also understand sometimes we need to get emails sent quickly. This time though M_H is right - there was a consensus, and it was for the list-type email. Ideally, in the future it's probably better to defer to the consensus if one can be found in a timely manner.

PS - My after-the-fact vote is also for the list

EDIT - Crosspost.

[Zeviz]

Swiss,

Thank you for taking the time to send our emails. If this is the only way to get out messages on time, we'll have to live with it. However, in this case every poster except you and Sooooo agreed on the same general message in a timely manner. The message you sent is different from that consensus message, so you should have at least posted it for confirmation for a few hours. I hope there was no harm done in this case, but in the future please don't go against what most other people prefer without warning. (This is equivalent to turnplayer suddenly changing build without notice based on his understanding of consensus.)

Again, thank you for taking time to do our diplomatic correspondence, but unless the message is truly urgent, please give people a few hours to at least proofread the draft.

[Swiss Pauli]

I think we should mention Imperio's adoption of Vassalage to PAL to back our point about the imminent DoW.

[ruff_hi]

HI Swiss,

I have to say that there is a reaction to this "bad craziness" thread in our forums that makes members of our team more and more paranoid that Imperio is coming after us. They have not responded to us in three weeks. We're still talking about giving you guys copper.

It seems that our Imperio warnings are starting to infect people.

[mostly-harmless]

Where is this from? A message from PAL?

mh