Brett Kavanaugh, great justice or greatest justice?

[rah]

Does your 'typical frat boy' keep copies of his calendars for 30+ years? Funny, all the character witnesses for Kavanaugh testify just the opposite.

All the frat boys I know could come up with 100's of bros that would testify to anything required to cover up for their debauchery.

I could find thousands of character witnesses that say how great I was that have no clue about some of the things I did when I was younger. Their claims would prove nothing except that I'm a good boy now. (and not even that as far as I'm concerened)

And I don't even know why you keep bring up the calendar. It is not proof of character. Are you trying to claim that if he kept a journal that it would be concrete proof that he never did anything that wasn't written in it. That's absurd. Especially someone that avoided direct questions when asked and claimed he wasn't a big drinker despite all the references that show otherwise. If you're going to lie about the little things, how can I believe anything.

[Ben Kenobi]

All the frat boys I know could come up with 100's of bros that would testify to anything required to cover up for their debauchery.

That wasn't my question. Does a typical frat boy keep copies of his calendars for 30+ years?

I could find thousands of character witnesses that say how great I was that have no clue about some of the things I did when I was younger. Their claims would prove nothing except that I'm a good boy now. (and not even that as far as I'm concerened)

Would you have girlfriends from your high school years testifying that you treated them like a gentleman? Kavanaugh's got that. His reputation seems quite different from a frat boy. If anything he's a dork.

And I don't even know why you keep bring up the calendar

Because it says a lot of things about his character. It reinforces his meticulous nature which is different from that of a frat boy, and something which has characterized his time on the appellate courts.

I notice you keep dodging the point I keep making about the fourteen women who testified on his behalf, given their interactions with Kavanaugh going back decades.

[Berzerker]

If someone said that someone 'attempted to rape them' and that they were 'trying to remove their clothes', I would ask how they 'attempted to remove your clothes'. Did they pull their hand under your shirt and try to pull it up? Did they take their pants off? Intent is much harder to prove than a person's specific actions.

She didn't say he removed his pants, she said he pinned her to a bed and was humping and groping her and tried to get her clothes off. Thats sexual assault, do you disagree? As for attempted rape, how far along in the process of sexual assault does he have to get before it becomes attempted rape? He might have only gotten charged with sexual assault because its open and shut but that does not mean he wasn't trying to bang her. The intent shows that and so do her actions and those of Judge - Brat didn't stop Brat from raping her, Judge stopped Brat. Your defense is: "how did he try to remove your clothes?" With his hands? I'm sure she could provide a more detailed description of what he did to remove her clothes, but Mitchell didn't dwell on your concern.

The fact that said person denies trying to stop him, denies that Kavanaugh was in a room with her and denies that she was at any of their parties would make me doubt her entire case. We have four witnesses who she claims were there and all five deny that she was in a room with Kavanaugh. Why should I believe the fifth when the other four say this.

What did you expect Judge to say? He was accused of a crime too and he wasn't gonna turn on his lifelong buddy. The others didn't witness the attack on Ford, why on Earth would they remember 1 nondescript party 35 years ago when they cant remember dozens of parties much less who attended? I'd like to see everyone on Kav's calendar testify so their memories can be explored with equal scrutiny, including him. But he ducked that investigation... Thats why the GOP came up with that nonsense about the horrible delay this was causing, they didn't want the people who accused Kav of lying under oath to come forward and they didn't want more shoes to drop. Dragging it on for a couple weeks while "character" witnesses testified was the last thing they wanted.

That would require someone putting Kavanaugh in the same room as Ford. There's no evidence for that, no pictures, nothing. You can't rape someone if you've never met them. Well, I'm sure you'd vote to convict someone because you don't like your politics, but then that speaks volumes about you as a person and a juror.

I dont care about their politics, he lied under oath and she was credible. I haven't reviewed his decisions but I'm probably more aligned with the federalist society than his accuser, albeit I dont know her politics. But you on the other hand...hehe. A good pro-life Catholic boy is accused of a crime and you're calling her the liar. What a surprise... No, if you're going to accuse someone of political bias go look in the mirror or talk to Kid.

Thank you. They can't put her in the same room.

Thats right, they dont remember the party. Now ask them if they remember any other parties and who was there. Hmm... No, we cant remember any other parties and who was there. But they went to parties, right? Well yeah. Can you remember the party on July 1st? You see, they denied remembering a party at which Ford claims she was attacked. But do they remember the July 1st party? Investigators weren't allowed to investigate, its illogical for you to use that as evidence against Ford.

She states that while she believes something happened to Ford, that it wasn't Kavanaugh.

She didn't say that

Given her history and character, I don't believe the parties she did attend that she would have stopped at 'just one'. Pretty specific memory though!

Given what exactly? Was she featured in a friend's book about how they were obnoxious drunks? She also has a pretty specific memory about loud music and sexual assault. Funny how that works, trauma promotes specific memories. Like when you were attacked, right? What did you do 2 weeks before you were attacked? Can you detail what happened that day as clearly as the day you were attacked?

Interesting evidentiary standard, Tossing out evidence you don't like because it disproves your case.

I didn't toss the calendar as evidence, its the nail in Kav's coffin. It shows he lied, he lied about not attending parties during the week and it shows the names of boys Ford identified in the very time frame of the assault. And you said his calendar was evidence of his superior memory, how did I toss it as evidence in this case? Its just not evidence he has a superior memory and given how much he drank your assertion is even more doubtful. I'd think the victim of assault by a drunk would have a better memory of the incident than the drunk.

[rah]

I notice you keep dodging the point I keep making about the fourteen women who testified on his behalf, given their interactions with Kavanaugh going back decades.

I will concede that he didn't try to rape those fourteen women. I can produce hundreds of women that can testify that I didn't have sex with them, which doesn't prove that I never had sex with women. My daughter stands as proof that I did.

So I don't keep dodging it, I just discount it.

And the concept that he kept a calendar so that proves he's not the type to grope women is not even worth discussing. If anything it just proves that he's anal. hmmmm.

[Ben Kenobi]

She didn't say he removed his pants

Which is significant. We can assume that he didn't because she would have claimed he did if he had.

, she said he pinned her to a bed

Which is assault

and was humping and groping her

Which is assault. Where did he grope her? She doesn't say.

and tried to get her clothes off.

Tried? How did he try? Did he put his hands under her shirt? She doesn't say.

Thats sexual assault, do you disagree?

This is why she has to answer a couple of very specific questions. If I were to grab someone you can grab someone without trying to take off their clothes. Which speaks as to intent. She leaves out some pretty critical details.

As for attempted rape, how far along in the process of sexual assault does he have to get before it becomes attempted rape?

Unwanted touching isn't sufficient to qualify as attempted rape. I see no evidence within her testimony that Kavanaugh intended anything at all.

He might have only gotten charged with sexual assault because its open and shut

Her case is so weak that no charges have ever been filed. There's a reason for that, no prosecutor is willing to put their reputation on the line to try to convict. The evidence just isn't there.

but that does not mean he wasn't trying to bang her.

Is there any evidence he did?

The intent shows that

Where? There's no corroboration from anyone saying that Kavanaugh was attracted to Ford in the slightest. Did they date? Nope. Did anyone see the two of them swapping ice cream cones together? Nope.

Your defense is: "how did he try to remove your clothes?" With his hands? I'm sure she could provide a more detailed description of what he did to remove her clothes, but Mitchell didn't dwell on your concern.

My defense is that Judge, Kavanaugh, the other two boys and Christine's friend all testify that Kavanaugh and Ford were not in the same room together. That's 0/4 with all four of her witnesses.

[Ben Kenobi]

I will concede that he didn't try to rape those fourteen women. I can produce hundreds of women that can testify that I didn't have sex with them, which doesn't prove that I never had sex with women. My daughter stands as proof that I did.

Would your girlfriend in high school conclude you were a gentleman with her? Kavanaugh's did. His reputation at least among the Catholic prep school girls other than Christine is that Kavanaugh was a gentlemen with them. That puts it at 14 to 1.

[rah]

My wife would testify that I treat her like a princess, but I haven't treated every woman like that.

And the serial killers neighbors always say "he was such a nice man"

And to be fair, if it hadn't been for the year book and all the drinking references while denying that he drank a lot, I might be more inclined to believe him. But his whole act was not believable. And his rant that he would get even was the straw the broke it for me. But we are all entitled to our own opinions.

He is probably a decent man now, and if he had just said, he was on the wild side like most teens but he didn't do what she claimed, I wouldn't think twice. But he denied stuff he didn't have to that there was considerable proof on, that just makes him look slimy. That he did to himself. I can't believe he wasn't coached better. Or he's just an idiot.

[Berzerker]

Ex husband and he denies even hearing the name Kavanaugh. Again, open and shut. None of the people in her life ever recall her talking about an incident with Kavanaugh in her life.

Also not sure why you'd accuse me of being a Clinton supporter... might want to back up and revise your hypothesis.

Where did I accuse you of supporting Clinton? Did Russell divorce her recently?

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/christine-blasey-ford-husband-friends-sworn-statements-about-brett-kavanaugh-accusation.html

The declarations are from three of her friends as well as her husband, Russell Ford. Russell says that Christine had told him that her assailant was Kavanaugh before his nomination but did not mention him specifically again until his name came up as a potential Supreme Court nominee for the seat that would eventually go to Neil Gorsuch. “I remember Christine saying she was afraid the President might nominate Kavanaugh,” Russell Ford wrote.

Which gives motive and opportunity for trying to ruin Kavanaugh.

Why?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Blasey_Ford

She's a very accomplished professor and researcher in the field of psychology. What is her motive? She was involved in a study of an abortion drug that is used to treat other diseases, so what? Are you saying she makes money off the sales and Kav's a threat to her profits? I dont think she's the corrupt one in this affair.

Not if they stall after the midterms and Trump loses the senate. They'd probably try to block all his nominations.

Trump is not losing the Senate and the GOP can do what it wants. Where'd you get the idea the Dems get to schedule nominations for Senate confirmation? The GOP had until January at the very minimum to nominate and confirm this lying jackass or another judge.

Because she's claiming she was there at one of their parties. She could name them because she read Judge's book.

You didn't answer my question, why did she name anyone and take the obvious risk they wouldn't back her up? She doesn't need his book to know who Kav's buddies are, she dated one of them. Thats who introduced her to Kav and Judge. Do these people deny knowing her?

LOL. At the time the Democrats believed they would take the Senate too. Apparently I've forgotten the electoral climate of a month ago. Man, I must really have short term memory if you're trying to pull that off.

Do you have a link to Senate Democrats claiming they would take the Senate? I dont think so, the competitive races favor the GOP and those numbers didn't change because of Ford. But it doesn't matter, the GOP had the Senate until January and could push thru anyone they wanted in place of Kavanaugh or they could have let the accusation be investigated. They chose to sweep it under the rug.

There were fourteen women, all of whom knew him for many years who vouched as to his character. Are you saying all fourteen got it wrong? Frankly I believe them. As for the rest, how do you know he's lying about these things?

And there's hundreds of women who would tell us Bill Clinton never tried to rape them. Did Juanita Broaddrick and Kathleen Willey get it wrong? Renate endorsed him too, then she found out about Renate Alumnus. How did he explain that one? She was our friend and we appreciated her. Yeah... By calling her the team pump. What a guy. And you've made him your hero.

Because you made up your mind about Kavanaugh before he opened his own mouth? I really hope you're not on any jury, ever. I certainly don't want you deciding whether someone goes to jail or not, because you've clearly shown that you'd convict someone of attempted rape despite never being in the same room as that person.

By that logic the only people who can sit on juries are people who were in the same room as the accused. Prospective jurors who know the accused are typically rejected for jury duty in favor of people who dont know them. His testimony was a joke; he dodged questions, tried to filibuster, lied, cried, yelled, and behaved like how a belligerent, obnoxious alcoholic would act when confronted with their sins.

https://www.gq.com/story/all-of-brett-kavanaughs-lies

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brett-kavanaugh-lies_us_5bb26190e4b027da00d61fcd

Thats a lot of lyin

Which is why her lawyer specifically didn't tell her that the GOP offered to fly staffers out to California?

Or why she kept flying to Tahiti for vacation? The other interesting thing is that one of her ex boyfriends testified that she kept charging his card after they broke up until he called her and asked her to stop and said that he'd take her to court to recover the charges.

I keep seeing a consistent pattern with Christine. She lied about not wanting to fly and got caught. As for the polygraph, she lied about that too. She's a psychologist and has specifically trained people to take a polygraph.

I'm not privy to what her lawyer told her, but why do you insist on arguing people who fear flying are lying because they fly? I saw that about the polygraph

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/ex-boyfriend-christine-blasey-ford-polygraph.html

The woman identified denies it happened.

Where did Ford advocate smearing Gorsuch with false accusations?

[Ben Kenobi]

but I haven't treated every woman like that.

Kavanaugh apparently was like that back in High School.

And to be fair, if it hadn't been for the year book and all the drinking references while denying that he drank a lot, I might be more inclined to believe him. But his whole act was not believable. And his rant that he would get even was the straw the broke it for me. But we are all entitled to our own opinions.

The testimonies from the ladies whom he did date at the time all seem pretty consistent that he was a good man who treated them well. People usually call me puritanical, but I think if an 18 year old senior in high school goes drinking on his summer vacation, this seems like perfectly normal behavior to me. Even I did that on my birthday, my friends took me out to a bar and we went barhopping. And then we get to drinking in college, I mean, come on. Is it really that unusual if he goes to a kegger every other weekend?

Sort of feels like that scene in Casablanca. "I'm shocked, to find gambling in this establishment." "your winnings sir", "Thank you".

He is probably a decent man now, and if he had just said, he was on the wild side like most teens but he didn't do what she claimed, I wouldn't think twice. But he denied stuff he didn't have to that there was considerable proof on, that just makes him look slimy. That he did to himself. I can't believe he wasn't coached better. Or he's just an idiot.

If someone said that about me, I'd probably laugh, and say, nope. I was pretty much a boyscout then. Kav has a lot more at stake though. I don't see why he should admit to being something that he wasn't just to satisfy other people. If someone accused me of sexually assaulting them, and it was a classmate at the time, I'd have to take a different tack, especially given where I work (as a teacher), and you better believe I'd be lining up character witnesses from all the people that I've ever worked with.

[Ben Kenobi]

She's a very accomplished professor and researcher in the field of psychology. What is her motive? She was involved in a study of an abortion drug that is used to treat other diseases, so what? Are you saying she makes money off the sales and Kav's a threat to her profits? I dont think she's the corrupt one in this affair.

I do. She has a professional and a financial incentive to oppose Kavanaugh to the tune of half a million dollars. Would you perjure yourself to destroy the life of someone you hate for that? Money talks and she's made out quite well for what, a month or so of work?

I'll be honest, if someone offered me that much, especially to stick the knife into someone that's gone out of their way to make trouble for me, I'd have to think about it. I think a lot of people would.

'Before the nomination', is extremely vague. A year ago? Six months ago? When?

Trump is not losing the Senate and the GOP can do what it wants. Where'd you get the idea the Dems get to schedule nominations for Senate confirmation? The GOP had until January at the very minimum to nominate and confirm this lying jackass or another judge.

At the time of the nomination this was not so clear. Look, it's even in the other thread, Giancarlo stating that the Democrats would take the Senate.

You didn't answer my question, why did she name anyone and take the obvious risk they wouldn't back her up? She doesn't need his book to know who Kav's buddies are, she dated one of them. Thats who introduced her to Kav and Judge. Do these people deny knowing her?

Simple. She named people that she thought would be sensible people because she had no other choice. She could have said there were no witnesses, and then nobody would believe her. People asked her for some names and she gave the other boys, and then a friend that she thought would want to stay out of the circus and/or would roll for her. Her testimony looks very different if her girlfriend lies and says, "yeah I was there, Christine is right". The interesting part for me is that there's a history of animosity between the two. Which makes it interesting to me why Christine chose her. For her being a 'lifelong friend', it doesn't appear to be such a strong friendship.

a belligerent, obnoxious alcoholic would act when confronted with their sins.

Weird. Apparently I'm the libertarian and you're the prohibitionist.

but why do you insist on arguing people who fear flying are lying because they fly?

Because I have people close to me who don't and didn't fly ever and they took the bus to get to places. They certainly weren't flying to Tahiti for vacation.

[Proteus_MST]

I do. She has a professional and a financial incentive to oppose Kavanaugh to the tune of half a million dollars. Would you perjure yourself to destroy the life of someone you hate for that? Money talks and she's made out quite well for what, a month or so of work?

I'll be honest, if someone offered me that much, especially to stick the knife into someone that's gone out of their way to make trouble for me, I'd have to think about it. I think a lot of people would.
....

She didn't do studies on an abortion pill.
Her studies concerned a medicine that is used for treating Cushings syndrome.
The pill has one ingredient that also often is given in abortions (in combination with the abortion pill itself), mifepristone.

Considering that the drug that is produced by the company contains 4 times the dose of mifepristone than that which is given in case of abortions (in combination with the abortion pill), it is rather doubtful that exactly the pill from this company (which, as I mentioned, is meant for treating Cushings-Syndrome) is used in abortions ... the abortion clinics will have other suppliers that specialize in lower dosed pills for this

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...abortion-pill/

You just fell for one of the propaganda tactics used by the GOP and Alt-Right in order to smear Ford

[Aeson]

Color me shocked that Ben is using his own shortcomings as a person as a basis for his suspicions about Dr Ford.

[Ben Kenobi]

The pill has one ingredient that also often is given in abortions (in combination with the abortion pill itself), mifepristone.

You seem to believe that I'm a, unaware of what mifepristone does, as well as unaware of her research and her work, so much so that a link from Politifact would change my mind.

If you're going to try that angle you should probably actually try citing her research.

As I've stated she's got professional and financial incentive to smear Kavanaugh. Now why might Mifepristone manufacturers want to find additional uses for their drug?

[Ben Kenobi]

You're a smart man Proteus. I'm sure you can connect all the dots together.

[Ben Kenobi]

Color me shocked that Ben is using his own shortcomings as a person as a basis for his suspicions about Dr Ford.

Some people will smear their political enemies for free. But then what do I know? I just post on Poly.