Brett Kavanaugh, great justice or greatest justice?

[Berzerker]

I have.

If that was true why did you mention a door with locks on both sides instead of the outside? How many bedroom doors have you seen with the lock on the outside? I'm curious as to how you define 'not unusual'. The only ones I've seen like that had an adjoining bathroom door so it could be used in privacy, that was not the case in her situation.

The only thing she said he did was grab her and try to pin her. As you yourself said that wasn't enough to convict for attempted rape, but assault. We aren't in disagreement here.

From her opening statement:

I was pushed onto the bed, and Brett got on top of me. He began running his hands over my body and grinding into me. I yelled, hoping that someone downstairs might hear me, and I tried to get away from him, but his weight was heavy.

Brett groped me and tried to take off my clothes. He had a hard time, because he was very inebriated, and because I was wearing a one-piece bathing suit underneath my clothing.

I believed he was going to rape me.

I tried to yell for help. When I did, Brett put his hand over my mouth to stop me from yelling. This is what terrified me the most, and has had the most lasting impact on my life. It was hard for me to breathe, and I thought that Brett was accidentally going to kill me.

Both Brett and Mark were drunkenly laughing during the attack. They seemed to be having a very good time.

Mark seemed ambivalent, at times urging Brett on and at times telling him to stop. A couple of times, I made eye contact with Mark and thought he might try to help me, but he did not.

During this assault, Mark came over and jumped on the bed twice while Brett was on top of me. And the last time that he did this, we toppled over and Brett was no longer on top of me. I was able to get up and run out of the room.

Humping and groping someone while trying to remove their clothes is not sexual? Would you testify to that under oath?

Nope. Even you admitted there wasn't enough evidence, even assuming that her account was 100 percent true.

I dont think I said there wasn't enough evidence and my opinion aint relevant to a jury. If I was on that jury I could go with sexual assault or attempted rape. The fact someone else had to intervene to stop him is evidence of his intent but I'd listen to the pros and cons and then decide.

There's that word again. Do or do not. There is no "try". Did he rape her? No.

The word you're ignoring is 'attempted'. Forcibly having sex is rape, trying to forcibly have sex is attempted rape. For us to 'acquit' him of attempted rape we'd have to believe he might have stopped on his own before it went further, thats debatable and creates wiggle room for a reasonable doubt, maybe. A jury could go either way on that, but sexual assault is a no-brainer.

Because the incident was supposedly seared into her memory? My thought, she knew that if she named a location it would be easy enough to disprove her story about the locks and the stairs in the house. And then nobody would believe her. Of course, it being 35 years ago, there might not have been a house or Kavanaugh.

What was her story about the lock? "Brett and Mark came into the bedroom and locked the door behind them."

Why do you keep talking about the lock? Again, you knew the building where you were attacked. She didn't know the house where she was attacked. She didn't remember (or know) the address or the owners, she remembers the assault. Your argument is illogical, you were not in her situation and she was not in yours, the two are not analogous.

Nobody said she never attended any parties at that age. None of the friends of her can place her in a party with Kavanaugh, which is not so hard to believe. Generally teenage boys, particularly seniors hang out with their own class and boys they go to school with. Source, a fellow teenage boy who did the same thing.

Thats not what they said, they dont remember the specific party she described. Her gf says she believes Ford, she just doesn't remember the party. Thats understandable, I've been to many parties I cant remember.

As opposed to the drunk 15 year old?

I dont think one beer got her drunk

Well, the way calendars tend to work is that you write them down before the event. You know, so you can remember what the hell you're planning to do.

Thats right, his entry was made before the party. So it wasn't an after-the-fact record of that night. You argued his memory was better than Fords because he kept a calendar. Actually I'd say people who cant trust their own memory are more likely to keep calendars.

Anyone who waits 35 years who's partner can't recall them talking about a particular assault, and refuses to press civil charges, yeah I'm going to believe they are lying.

She told her husband... So all those women sexually assaulted by Bill Clinton, Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein who didn't immediately report the crime lied? You keep dodging my question: do you think Juanita Broaddrick and Kathleen Willey lied about Bill Clinton because they waited to go public? Hell, Broaddrick even denied the assault for a long time before changing her story. Did she lie? Or do you save that accusation only for people accusing your sacred cows?

The evidence I see suggests the following.

One, Ford has done three studies on abortion pills. She has an enormous professional and personal incentive to defeat Kavanaugh's nomination. Two, she read Judge's book and from there was able to obtain enough information about Kavanaugh and his friends to cobble together a fairly convincing narrative. Three, she posted that someone should have done that to Gorsuch, deletes all of it and then proceeds to do just that to Kavanaugh.

Four, as a professional psychologist, she constructed the narrative of her account, falsifying her encounter with Kavanaugh, and calling on the boys and her one "friend", whom she's not close to but it's someone she doesn't think will testify against her, or at the very least can be bullied into not testifying.

Five, she collects half a million from fellow travelers with the media circus around Kavanaugh, with the purpose of stalling the nomination until after the midterm elections, where Rs lose either the house or the Senate, and then Kav's nomination is off the table.

This explains all the evidence. One, why there's never any mention of Kavanaugh from Ford prior to this year. No written record, nothing. It explains her motivation to falsify and her reluctance to testify under oath (she could be stripped of her professional certs if proven). Three, her lie about not wanting to fly to DC while at the same time flying to Tahiti for vacation multiple times.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...abortion-pill/

Apparently she stopped working for them 6 years ago, but wouldn't Trump nominate another anti-Roe judge? Did she read Judge's book before telling her husband about Kavanaugh several years ago? What exactly in Judge's book would lead her to accurately describe attendance at a party? She dated Kavanaugh's buddy, why would she need Judge's book to know these guys partied? Where's the evidence she said Gorsuch should have been smeared with false accusations of attempted rape?

Four, why did she name anyone much less Kavanaugh's buddies? The only 'witness' was Judge, she had to know there's a decent chance he'd 'forget'. Ford bullied Leyland into lying now? Five, the House doesn't confirm judges, the Senate does that and the R's stand to gain ground in the Senate and the election is irrelevant - the new Senate takes power in January. As for money to pay her expenses, you really think she invited this circus - and death threats - into her family's life for some money? I dont... Of the two and what we know of them, her integrity > his lying under oath.

Her husband said she told him Kavanaugh's name several years ago back when they were seeing a therapist about her insistence on a double door. She took a lie detector test, Kavanaugh didn't. She asked for the FBI to investigate, Kavanaugh didn't. When asked under oath if he was the Bart Kavanaugh in Mike Judge's book, he said you'd have to ask Judge. He didn't know. BS. He lied about the extent of his drinking, he lied about Renate Alumni, he lied about all sorts of evidence of his lack of character. A number of people accused him of lying under oath, people who knew him in HS and college. Are they all lying?

She doesn't like flying, so what? You do understand there are many people who fear flying but still fly, especially for a nice vacation. Flying to be the kangaroo in the GOP court would be even more stressful.

[spambot]

You changed class from Warlock to Shaman?

[ZEE]

I was always a Shaman. A warlock/witch uses all her powers from thair own abilities. I can conjure Demons and Spirits at will with no fear and remain unscathed. I was mistaken at first, about almost everything. Remember, no human being helped me discover anything. Just me and the Demons. Do you want to give your money to the scraggly haired witch to read your fortune?

Or trust the dude that will do it for free that was trained by the beings that actually CONTROL the ****. But I have said too much. My food is getting cold.

Have a good day, Gribbler.

[Aeson]

I have. I find it rather funny that you completely dismiss her claims that she could have been killed, while at the same time insisting that she was 100 percent correct in her fears of being raped.



"I think he was trying to do x", is different from "he did x". This is where intent comes into play and "what did he actually do", to see if your interpretation of what you say he did is reasonable.

You yourself say that her assessment of the event was unreasonable in the case of attempted murder. Fair enough. But why then shouldn't we also question the rest of the narrative? I don't see any indication from her that he intended to rape, and certain details that she could have included she did not. So this makes me really curious why those details are missing and how she always seems to have a story to cover her broad inconsistencies.

Now personally, I'd not remember what music someone was playing 35 years ago, but apparently she can remember that and not the location of the house or how she got home.

I dont dismiss her fear of being killed. I dismiss your claims that a death in such a case would be murder. Her account refutes that it would be murder, and does so explicitly.

The account is one of much more than just groping. It is an account of a sexual assault, not an attempted murder. If we were to accept the account as true we would have to accept it was a sexual assault. There is no reason to presume it was an attempted murder even if we don’t question the validity of the account. There’s just nothing in the account that suggests it was an attempted murder.

[Aeson]

Never realized Yoda was talking about raping people!

Lightsabers are glorified penises, the Sith and Jedi run around non-consensually stabbing others with. Also, the prequels and the postquels raped the franchise.

[Aeson]

Well, sorry to disappoint you guise, but I just ordered $50 worth of Chinese food and am going to watch movies and enjoy the food. People might ask me... AAHZ are you mad at what you have been through in life? My answer... NO!

Why would I be mad?! I have a loving family and I live on an estate in my own unit, I am financially stable even though I am between jobs and working with an agency that helps disabled people with an 11-year job behind me, I have an army of doctors ready to back me up in any case, the liquor flows like a river, I eat and fap whenever I want, my entire block loves me, and I am a trained master Shaman that can summon any demon I want no matter how trivial and am also an Oniromancer and Chriomancer. Not only have I beaten THIS life...

My afterlife looks pretty good as well. I have heard haters drive by me and scream and curse in anger when they saw me. The spirits know I am not joking. That dude that should have killed me 10 years ago is in deep **** with his OG. It turns me on a little and I have fapped to that.

I think I will let my nuts hang tonight.

Chriomancers are a bunch of quacks ... summoning demons to crack a persons spine does nothing for lower back pain!

[Aeson]

I can conjure Demons and Spirits at will with no fear and remain unscathed.

But I have said too much. My food is getting cold.

Can’t you just tell one of your demons to bring a bit of hellfire with them to warm the food up?

[ZEE]

Can’t you just tell one of your demons to bring a bit of hellfire with them to warm the food up?

Even though I am extremely well trained and known in the "spirit world" I do not annoy them with stupidity.

[ZEE]

Chriomancers are a bunch of quacks ... summoning demons to crack a persons spine does nothing for lower back pain!

If I summoned a demon to crack a person's back I assure you it would not be for the purpose of pain relief...

[Proteus_MST]

Lightsabers are glorified penises, the Sith and Jedi run around non-consensually stabbing others with. Also, the prequels and the postquels raped the franchise.

If lightsabers are glorified penises, are then penises degraded lightsabers?

[Broken_Erika]

Lightsabers are glorified penises, the Sith and Jedi run around non-consensually stabbing others with. Also, the prequels and the postquels raped the franchise.

[Ben Kenobi]

he was your typical entitled frat boy that liked beer and thought rules didn't apply to him

Does your 'typical frat boy' keep copies of his calendars for 30+ years? Funny, all the character witnesses for Kavanaugh testify just the opposite.

[Berzerker]

his character witnesses testified he didn't like beer?

[Ben Kenobi]

Humping and groping someone while trying to remove their clothes is not sexual? Would you testify to that under oath?

If someone said that someone 'attempted to rape them' and that they were 'trying to remove their clothes', I would ask how they 'attempted to remove your clothes'. Did they pull their hand under your shirt and try to pull it up? Did they take their pants off? Intent is much harder to prove than a person's specific actions.

The fact someone else had to intervene to stop him is evidence of his intent but I'd listen to the pros and cons and then decide.

The fact that said person denies trying to stop him, denies that Kavanaugh was in a room with her and denies that she was at any of their parties would make me doubt her entire case. We have four witnesses who she claims were there and all five deny that she was in a room with Kavanaugh. Why should I believe the fifth when the other four say this?

Forcibly having sex is rape, trying to forcibly have sex is attempted rape. For us to 'acquit' him of attempted rape we'd have to believe he might have stopped on his own before it went further, thats debatable and creates wiggle room for a reasonable doubt, maybe. A jury could go either way on that, but sexual assault is a no-brainer.

That would require someone putting Kavanaugh in the same room as Ford. There's no evidence for that, no pictures, nothing. You can't rape someone if you've never met them. Well, I'm sure you'd vote to convict someone because you don't like your politics, but then that speaks volumes about you as a person and a juror.

they dont remember the specific party she described.

Thank you. They can't put her in the same room.

Her gf says she believes Ford, she just doesn't remember the party. Thats understandable, I've been to many parties I cant remember.

She states that while she believes something happened to Ford, that it wasn't Kavanaugh. This case is really open and shut. That alone would be enough for a competent defense lawyer to get it tossed.

I dont think one beer got her drunk

Given her history and character, I don't believe the parties she did attend that she would have stopped at 'just one'. Pretty specific memory though!

You argued his memory was better than Fords because he kept a calendar. Actually I'd say people who cant trust their own memory are more likely to keep calendars.

Interesting evidentiary standard, Tossing out evidence you don't like because it disproves your case.

She told her husband...

Ex husband and he denies even hearing the name Kavanaugh. Again, open and shut. None of the people in her life ever recall her talking about an incident with Kavanaugh in her life.

Also not sure why you'd accuse me of being a Clinton supporter... might want to back up and revise your hypothesis.

Apparently she stopped working for them 6 years ago

Which gives motive and opportunity for trying to ruin Kavanaugh.

, but wouldn't Trump nominate another anti-Roe judge?

Not if they stall after the midterms and Trump loses the senate. They'd probably try to block all his nominations.

Four, why did she name anyone much less Kavanaugh's buddies?

Because she's claiming she was there at one of their parties. She could name them because she read Judge's book.

the Senate does that and the R's stand to gain ground in the Senate and the election is irrelevant

LOL. At the time the Democrats believed they would take the Senate too. Apparently I've forgotten the electoral climate of a month ago. Man, I must really have short term memory if you're trying to pull that off.

He lied about the extent of his drinking, he lied about Renate Alumni, he lied about all sorts of evidence of his lack of character. A number of people accused him of lying under oath, people who knew him in HS and college.

There were fourteen women, all of whom knew him for many years who vouched as to his character. Are you saying all fourteen got it wrong? Frankly I believe them. As for the rest, how do you know he's lying about these things?

Because you made up your mind about Kavanaugh before he opened his own mouth? I really hope you're not on any jury, ever. I certainly don't want you deciding whether someone goes to jail or not, because you've clearly shown that you'd convict someone of attempted rape despite never being in the same room as that person.

She doesn't like flying, so what? You do understand there are many people who fear flying but still fly, especially for a nice vacation. Flying to be the kangaroo in the GOP court would be even more stressful.

Which is why her lawyer specifically didn't tell her that the GOP offered to fly staffers out to California?

Or why she kept flying to Tahiti for vacation? The other interesting thing is that one of her ex boyfriends testified that she kept charging his card after they broke up until he called her and asked her to stop and said that he'd take her to court to recover the charges.

I keep seeing a consistent pattern with Christine. She lied about not wanting to fly and got caught. As for the polygraph, she lied about that too. She's a psychologist and has specifically trained people to take a polygraph.

[Ben Kenobi]

I dont dismiss her fear of being killed. I dismiss your claims that a death in such a case would be murder. Her account refutes that it would be murder, and does so explicitly.

The account is one of much more than just groping. It is an account of a sexual assault, not an attempted murder. If we were to accept the account as true we would have to accept it was a sexual assault. There is no reason to presume it was an attempted murder even if we don’t question the validity of the account. There’s just nothing in the account that suggests it was an attempted murder.

That assumes that she is telling the truth. Tough when all the witnesses that she cites were there don't corroborate her story. It would be one thing if they said, "oh yeah, she was at this party on this date. But she never said that and they denied that she was at one of their parties. Again, open and shut. If he was there and she was there, I would have to take her claims under greater consideration. But we don't even get that far.

As I said, this is pretty open and shut. Any competent defense lawyer would have gotten the case dismissed as soon as her witness friend took the stand and stated that she couldn't put Kav and Christine in the same room together.

[Aeson]

No, what I said does not require the account to be true or false. It is a verifiable fact that her account is about sexual assault and not attempted murder.