Okay, what can we realistically expect from a Trump presidency?

[Bereta_Eder]

There are a lot of things that can be done though. Renewable sources of energy have immense potential be that solar blue energy wind hydro.
Also both germany and belgium took the brave decision to phase out completely nuclear power.

[giblets]

Phasing out nuclear power makes it harder to not rely on fossil fuels.

[pchang]

Amen and follow the due process and procedure Plato, if we stick to rules no problem, my problem is how are we supporting illegals and not for our own citizens.

Gramps

I'm not sure you have an accurate view of how these things work. Illegal immigrants get fake papers in order to work (fake SSN mostly). They pay taxes (SSN, Medicare, even Income tax withholding) that they cannot avoid because they are payroll deductions before they ever see the money. Because they are not real citizens, they will never be able to file for Social Security or Medicare. In addition, many of them do not file tax returns in order to avoid further governmental scrutiny. As a result, they do not get tax refunds they are entitled to. In many ways, illegal immigrants are in fact subsidizing US citizens.

[KrazyHorse]

Phasing out nuclear power makes it harder to not rely on fossil fuels.

It

[PLATO]

I'm not sure you have an accurate view of how these things work. Illegal immigrants get fake papers in order to work (fake SSN mostly). They pay taxes (SSN, Medicare, even Income tax withholding) that they cannot avoid because they are payroll deductions before they ever see the money. Because they are not real citizens, they will never be able to file for Social Security or Medicare. In addition, many of them do not file tax returns in order to avoid further governmental scrutiny. As a result, they do not get tax refunds they are entitled to. In many ways, illegal immigrants are in fact subsidizing US citizens.

True in some cases. Then there are the millions who work as day loborers for cash who consume services and pay nothing for them. Which do you think is more?

I am not sure I have ever seen any statistics on this issue. Do you know of any I could look at?

[PLATO]

It

Sawgrass

hides.......

[KrazyHorse]

Sawgrass

hides.......

Made a mistake, was trying to post smth longer and got distracted

[pchang]

True in some cases. Then there are the millions who work as day loborers for cash who consume services and pay nothing for them. Which do you think is more?

I am not sure I have ever seen any statistics on this issue. Do you know of any I could look at?

I would start here: http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cos...al-immigrants/

Basically, the cost of illegal immigration is unknown, but estimated to be modest (when measured at the state and local level). I did not see any estimates at the national level, but it is at the national level, where there is most likely a net benefit (SSN, Medicare, and Fed Income tax are net gains, but education, health care, and law enforcement costs are incurred at the local level).

[Grandpa Troll]

I'm not sure you have an accurate view of how these things work. Illegal immigrants get fake papers in order to work (fake SSN mostly). They pay taxes (SSN, Medicare, even Income tax withholding) that they cannot avoid because they are payroll deductions before they ever see the money. Because they are not real citizens, they will never be able to file for Social Security or Medicare. In addition, many of them do not file tax returns in order to avoid further governmental scrutiny. As a result, they do not get tax refunds they are entitled to. In many ways, illegal immigrants are in fact subsidizing US citizens.

Maybe YOU dont know how the whole system works, how can you or anyone say an "estimate" (im not pouncing on your view as I agree with what your saying as a part of the problem) however the word undocumented is just that, undocumented. How can a state or the Fed say what estimate that could be considered accurate?

I say a drain on society because many illegal immigrants take jobs away from U S Citizens because illegals will likely, work below the radar for cheaper rates. I work in construction and see many companies lose jobs because of illegal crews working for very low wages. Another accepted practice from Hispanic, told to me by Hispanics about Hispanics, is a crew chief will "extort" a fee from them to work on their crew even though thats not an accepted practice with American workers.

They take jobs cheaper than American Citizens therefore American crews lose their work to illegal's.

I have been in my Industry for 31 years and have seen it over and over, the laws are tightening for work on Federal Bases because of programs such as Rapidgate access.

A drain on society in another light sir.

Gramps

[giblets]

Doing a job isn't a drain on society. Jesus.

[pchang]

Maybe YOU dont know how the whole system works, how can you or anyone say an "estimate" (im not pouncing on your view as I agree with what your saying as a part of the problem) however the word undocumented is just that, undocumented. How can a state or the Fed say what estimate that could be considered accurate?

So, you are saying that no one can know, but then later that you know due to anecdotal evidence? Take a look at this: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/03/2...grant-workers/

From that report, it would appear the problem in construction work was getting better on its own:

Among construction workers, the number of unauthorized immigrants declined from 1.6 million in 2007 to 1.2 million in 2012 (a 23% decline), a period in which total U.S. construction employment fell to from 9.9 million to 8.5 million (a 15% decline).

[Ben Kenobi]

would probably be the single best thing we could do for our safety and economic future.

I said "can" do ... as in present tense ...

Nope. You said "could", not can.

Also fusion power doesn't really make us safer.

Actually, yes it does. Imagine reducing the cost of power to a tenth of what it is now?

If we were actually the force for prosperity and freedom we like to pretend we are, we would have a lot fewer enemies. We also don't really know if fusion power is going to be the panacea it is billed as, or in what time-frame. At one time fission was hailed as our savoir and it never really worked out that way.

Fission is good technology too. The reason it hasn't taken off is because people are prejudiced against it's use. It's very safe, clean technology.

[Ben Kenobi]

USA consumes 61 bbl/day per 1000 people, Russia consumes 15. And frankly, i think we in Russia live good enough.

If you came to the United States, you would not think so.

And no, being wealthy is not a problem. Consuming more than nessessary just because you're wealthy and you can do it is a problem. Say, Germany is also wealthy, but it consumes only 30 bbl/day per 1000 people.

Again - consumer electronics are the classic example where consumption by the rich draws down costs to make technology ubiquitous.

The only way to "preserve" oil is to consume less oil. If a wealthiness of a capitalistic society is measured by it's consumption, it can't preserve oil - it's only goal is to consume more of it, not less.

Look at the Aral Sea. Largest ecological disaster of the 20th century - under *your* watch not the Americans. Frankly, Russians have no cause to castigate anyone else for not protecting the environment.

That's kinda unrelated, no?

Not at all. You're talking about economics, and if your concepts as to how an economy ought to run are so sound, why did you fall apart?

Yup. You're a strategy games player, you should understand abstract things.

Indeed I do. However, that's the primary reason why your concept of economics does not work. The real world is not a zero sum game. The work I do the money I make does not necessarily mean that one person benefits and that another person does not. Rather the opposite is true.

The better I do - the better other people do, and the converse is also true.

Basically, what humans do is that they turn resources into waste.

Not true in the slightest. If we took someone from the 19th century Russia and brought them to the New York City of today, would they conclude that 'people mostly produce waste?'

The wealthier the society is, the faster they turn resources into waste. Some resources have a limited supply. So, we have an abstract problem here.

Also not true either. Wealthier societies tend to create wealth better than poorer societies. Again - you don't believe that wealth can be created.

In this abstract problem, the only real output of a society that makes a difference is scientific research because it can allow us to use other (finite or infinite) resources instead of finite resources before finite resouces will end. It doesn't matter how much waste a society generates (how "wealthy" it is). The only important question, can we get to some scientific goals that will let our economy work for a while longer, or we don't.

Science, like many other things, requires investment. No investment = no science. Look at the Haber process as an example. The research cost money, the equipment cost money, but society in general benefitted because the process reduced the cost of producing food. Thus, the Haber process created wealth and made people in general wealthier.

So, in this case it doesn't matter if there is one poor african or two poor africans - they practically don't consume finite resources anyway. But it does matter that one average USA citizen consumes twice as much oil as average German citizen, who also lives in a rich country.

Consumption is actually correlated with greater, and not lesser wealth. Big question here - why are the Americans rich and the Africans poor?

Finite resources are "zero-sum game".

Actually power generation resources are not finite.

Becase they're, you know, finite. You can spend them for bigger wealth, for smaller poverty, or for scientific research. As i understand, you advocate spending it on wealth, Aeson argues to use it to reduce poverty, and i say that the only thing that matters is a scientific research - of course, if we want our grandchildren to enjoy benefits of a civilization.

Oil is used because it's cheaper to use than other kinds of power generation.

[Aeson]

The reality is we don't have workable fusion power right now. We do have the tools necessary to eliminate poverty worldwide. We do have the tech to create sustainable economies. We only need the will to do those things.

[onodera]

Ben, you're lucky Colorado river drains (used to drain) into the ocean, it's just as ****ed up as Amu Darya is.