Texan Bigotry

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, but not being a horrible human being isn't important to BK.

I'm decidedly on the 'good is not nice' side. Why is this a surprise?

What's important to him is believing in that black dude the Jews burned or whatever.

Oh right, because I'm obviously a racist and an antisemite because I believe homosexuality is sinful? You seem to be assuming that I regard sexual preference as anything other than a choice.

And you can't believe in that dead guy unless you try to act like him.

Christians are not MrFunians. You follow what Christ teaches not what you want. Chesterton puts it well, we need a religion that is right where we are wrong. I'm wrong about plenty of things that Christ helps to work with me to correct.

Anyways, the point is you'd think BK would want his friends to join him in Candyland. But apparently not.

Having been on the outside, the most effective motivation to help me become Christian was seeing the joyful lives of Christians. I need to work on this aspect of my life. I have lots of work to do here.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're actually exactly like those ****s from the Westboro Baptist Church, aren't you?

I am surprised that you would consider my advocacy towards traditional marriage would qualify for the comparison and not prolife.

You value your our own stupid, shallow minded, flawed interpretation of biblical teachings so highly that you are happy to cause other people pain so that you can feel smug and superior about yourself.

Do I sound exultant? Or do I sound like the same unhappy, bitter and right now - extremely tired Ben Kenobi? I was on the other side. True story, I told my confessor when I was in RCIA what I believed about homosexuality and I said that I thought that homosexuality in the priesthood was ok. This is as late as spring of 2004. My position on this has shifted from there to what I believe Christianity actually teaches, that Homosexuality is a sin. I didn't truly understand marriage and what Christ was teaching till after I read Scott Hahn on sacraments.

It's not about me, and what I believe, and everything to do with what Christianity has always taught.

I would love to get a serious Catholic theologian to come here just so they could slap the living **** out of your idiotic ideas about Christianity.

I could invite some here.

Unfortunately however I'm not cruel enough to put anyone else through a round of your bull****.

I'm happy to go rounds with whomever, whenever.

[kentonio]

I could invite some here.

I'll pass on a Ben DL account, one is bad enough.

I'm happy to go rounds with whomever, whenever.

Given that you routinely and deliberately lie, why would anyone want to debate you?

[Ben Kenobi]

Also, show me where in MrFun's engagement thread he attempts to deceive non-Christians into believing that Christ was a homo-lover.

The argument has shifted now to Mr Fun didn't do it in that thread? Wow. Terrible argument. Mr Fun has been a huge proponent that Christ taught that gay marriage is good, despite the fact that what Christ actually taught in Matthew 19 is one man and one woman. For life.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's amazing how often the task of stepping up and being an obnoxious, heartless ***** seems to fall to you. You must truly be a real hero.

Yes, everyone in real life knows me as an obnoxious, heartless *****. You've nailed me in three words.

[Ben Kenobi]

Given that you routinely and deliberately lie, why would anyone want to debate you?

I've noticed that the definition of 'lie' appears to be, 'expresses an opinion that countervales established liberal orthodoxy'.

[Lorizael]

The argument has shifted now to Mr Fun didn't do it in that thread? Wow. Terrible argument. Mr Fun has been a huge proponent that Christ taught that gay marriage is good, despite the fact that what Christ actually taught in Matthew 19 is one man and one woman. For life.

Ah, so you believe that because MrFun says things you disagree with, it's okay to stalk him across an internet forum and be a raging ****hole to him whenever he posts, regardless of whether or not he's said anything you actually find objectionable. Once again, you've proven yourself to be an even worse human being that I imagined. Wow.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ah, so you believe that because MrFun says things you disagree with, it's okay to stalk him across an internet forum and be a raging ****hole to him whenever he posts, regardless of whether or not he's said anything you actually find objectionable. Once again, you've proven yourself to be an even worse human being that I imagined. Wow.

People tend to find the things they are looking for.

[Nikolai]

Ben and I agree on the theology here. We did choose different ways to meet mrfun's engagement, but I want to say that it's his right as a Christian to another Christian (mrfun) to challenge the other's theology. Mrfun knows my views, so I decided to not say anything on the matter. I wish him well, and that is what I expressed in the thread. Ben too wish him well. He has another view on how to express it, true. But don't attack him for his personal qualities, attack him objectively on his stance with real arguments. Personal attacks will not get you anywhere. Protip: counter theology with theology.

[Ben Kenobi]

Protip: counter theology with theology.

Why are you giving them hints!?

[Lorizael]

I actually used to think you were a fairly decent person. Your beliefs were very different from mine, clearly, but I had no trouble discussing things with you and I didn't really understand all the hate you received. Eventually I became more aware of the fact you're a lying weasel who will sink to any depth in order to prove a point.

Find what I'm looking for? I'm really not biased against Christians. I dated a fundamentalist Christian for over 2 years. I was crazy in love with her. We had a lot of fruitful discussions about religion.

[Lorizael]

Ben and I agree on the theology here. We did choose different ways to meet mrfun's engagement, but I want to say that it's his right as a Christian to another Christian (mrfun) to challenge the other's theology. Mrfun knows my views, so I decided to not say anything on the matter. I wish him well, and that is what I expressed in the thread. Ben too wish him well. He has another view on how to express it, true. But don't attack him for his personal qualities, attack him objectively on his stance with real arguments. Personal attacks will not get you anywhere. Protip: counter theology with theology.

I have no desire to counter your or BK's theology. A lot of people believe crazy ****, and I have neither the time nor the inclination to correct it all. What bothers me about BK isn't his beliefs, but the fact that he's a really ****ty person. After all, you may believe the same things he does, but you are demonstrably not a gigantic dickhole about your beliefs. BK is. He sees it as his mission to vomit his beliefs all over everybody.

[Ben Kenobi]

I actually used to think you were a fairly decent person. Your beliefs were very different from mine, clearly, but I had no trouble discussing things with you and I didn't really understand all the hate you received. Eventually I became more aware of the fact you're a lying weasel who will sink to any depth in order to prove a point.

I guess my question for you is this. Going back and looking through this thread, do you come across as the one who's ruled by logic here? Arguing that "I'm a horrible person" isn't really going to get you anywhere. Heck, I'll be the first to agree with you here that I'm a horrible person. I'm a convert. Converts have a **** ton of stuff to fix in their lives. Old habits, bad habits that negatively affect everyone around them. They also tend to get a bad combination of radicalism and defiance. It doesn't work well for us, or really for everyone.

However, what's the alternative? Going back to our old lives? Is the answer really turning away from what Christ actually teaches on all of these things - or turning towards him for help in the areas of our lives that need improvement. This is the crux of the disagreement. You believe that homosexuality is just like the color of your skin, that people have wants and desires for men and that they ought to be able to express their wants and desires for men because people have a right to be happy.

I get that. The only part we disagree on is a rather fundamental one. "Are all the desires and wants of men good desires?" No. And it is here where our philosophies diverge. I believe that it is very important that people constrain their negative impulses. I don't believe that homosexual desires are a good desire that indulging in the desire will prove beneficial. THAT is why I changed my opinion on it over time.

It also doesn't help seeing Fun's arguments for his position. None of which are based in scripture and are contrary to what scripture actually says. This indicates to me that the depth of his position is not great and that the theology is flawed. People seem to assume that 'I don't understand' other people's arguments.' I remain unconvinced by Fun's arguments. I remain convinced by the mass of testimony behind traditional marriage. Not just from St. Paul but from Catholics and Christians all the way down the line.

Find what I'm looking for? I'm really not biased against Christians. I dated a fundamentalist Christian for over 2 years. I was crazy in love with her. We had a lot of fruitful discussions about religion.

You are looking to prove me as an evil person so you are self-selecting evidence that reinforces this position.

[regexcellent]

There's a time and place to discuss theology and morality and what marriage means and whatever but that thread wasn't it, is what I'm saying. That thread not only wasn't it but it was a really, really bad place to bring up G.K. ****ing Chesterton and Ben should have just not clicked on it at all.

[Ben Kenobi]

There's a time and place to discuss theology and morality and what marriage means and whatever but that thread wasn't it, is what I'm saying. That thread not only wasn't it but it was a really, really bad place to bring up G.K. ****ing Chesterton and Ben should have just not clicked on it at all.

Reg - honest question here. What's the number one goal for Christianity?