Texan Bigotry

[Lorizael]

I actually used to think you were a fairly decent person. Your beliefs were very different from mine, clearly, but I had no trouble discussing things with you and I didn't really understand all the hate you received. Eventually I became more aware of the fact you're a lying weasel who will sink to any depth in order to prove a point.

Find what I'm looking for? I'm really not biased against Christians. I dated a fundamentalist Christian for over 2 years. I was crazy in love with her. We had a lot of fruitful discussions about religion.

[Lorizael]

Ben and I agree on the theology here. We did choose different ways to meet mrfun's engagement, but I want to say that it's his right as a Christian to another Christian (mrfun) to challenge the other's theology. Mrfun knows my views, so I decided to not say anything on the matter. I wish him well, and that is what I expressed in the thread. Ben too wish him well. He has another view on how to express it, true. But don't attack him for his personal qualities, attack him objectively on his stance with real arguments. Personal attacks will not get you anywhere. Protip: counter theology with theology.

I have no desire to counter your or BK's theology. A lot of people believe crazy ****, and I have neither the time nor the inclination to correct it all. What bothers me about BK isn't his beliefs, but the fact that he's a really ****ty person. After all, you may believe the same things he does, but you are demonstrably not a gigantic dickhole about your beliefs. BK is. He sees it as his mission to vomit his beliefs all over everybody.

[Ben Kenobi]

I actually used to think you were a fairly decent person. Your beliefs were very different from mine, clearly, but I had no trouble discussing things with you and I didn't really understand all the hate you received. Eventually I became more aware of the fact you're a lying weasel who will sink to any depth in order to prove a point.

I guess my question for you is this. Going back and looking through this thread, do you come across as the one who's ruled by logic here? Arguing that "I'm a horrible person" isn't really going to get you anywhere. Heck, I'll be the first to agree with you here that I'm a horrible person. I'm a convert. Converts have a **** ton of stuff to fix in their lives. Old habits, bad habits that negatively affect everyone around them. They also tend to get a bad combination of radicalism and defiance. It doesn't work well for us, or really for everyone.

However, what's the alternative? Going back to our old lives? Is the answer really turning away from what Christ actually teaches on all of these things - or turning towards him for help in the areas of our lives that need improvement. This is the crux of the disagreement. You believe that homosexuality is just like the color of your skin, that people have wants and desires for men and that they ought to be able to express their wants and desires for men because people have a right to be happy.

I get that. The only part we disagree on is a rather fundamental one. "Are all the desires and wants of men good desires?" No. And it is here where our philosophies diverge. I believe that it is very important that people constrain their negative impulses. I don't believe that homosexual desires are a good desire that indulging in the desire will prove beneficial. THAT is why I changed my opinion on it over time.

It also doesn't help seeing Fun's arguments for his position. None of which are based in scripture and are contrary to what scripture actually says. This indicates to me that the depth of his position is not great and that the theology is flawed. People seem to assume that 'I don't understand' other people's arguments.' I remain unconvinced by Fun's arguments. I remain convinced by the mass of testimony behind traditional marriage. Not just from St. Paul but from Catholics and Christians all the way down the line.

Find what I'm looking for? I'm really not biased against Christians. I dated a fundamentalist Christian for over 2 years. I was crazy in love with her. We had a lot of fruitful discussions about religion.

You are looking to prove me as an evil person so you are self-selecting evidence that reinforces this position.

[regexcellent]

There's a time and place to discuss theology and morality and what marriage means and whatever but that thread wasn't it, is what I'm saying. That thread not only wasn't it but it was a really, really bad place to bring up G.K. ****ing Chesterton and Ben should have just not clicked on it at all.

[Ben Kenobi]

There's a time and place to discuss theology and morality and what marriage means and whatever but that thread wasn't it, is what I'm saying. That thread not only wasn't it but it was a really, really bad place to bring up G.K. ****ing Chesterton and Ben should have just not clicked on it at all.

Reg - honest question here. What's the number one goal for Christianity?

[regexcellent]

Uh huh, saving souls, if you're trying to proselytize you're doing a pretty terrible job of it. ****ting up MrFun's thread won nobody any favors.

[Lorizael]

You are looking to prove me as an evil person so you are self-selecting evidence that reinforces this position.

Yeah, you kind of missed my point. I never had it in for you. There's no particular reason I should want to prove that you are an evil person. I have no bias against Christianity. And I have no problem with people who hold what I consider to be offensive beliefs. My own beliefs on a number of topics are pretty offensive. What you believe isn't the problem. It's how you act. You're just a bad person. There are Christians on Apolyton I get along with fine. And it's not because they believe the same things I do, or because they hide their offensive beliefs; it's because they're not enormous asswipes. That's all there is to it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Uh huh, saving souls, if you're trying to proselytize you're doing a pretty terrible job of it. ****ting up MrFun's thread won nobody any favors.

I realize that. Which is why I thought about it.

Yes, it's saving souls. Fun's soul. If you believed that he was on the wrong path, wouldn't you want to say something? What did Jesus say about the one sheep that was lost? That he was willing to leave the other 99 to go look for the one lost sheep.

99 sheep whom Jesus trusted enough to stay with him while he chased after the one.

[Ben Kenobi]

My own beliefs on a number of topics are pretty offensive. What you believe isn't the problem. It's how you act. You're just a bad person. There are Christians on Apolyton I get along with fine. And it's not because they believe the same things I do, or because they hide their offensive beliefs; it's because they're not enormous asswipes. That's all there is to it.

Given the comparison, made in the thread, if you were reading what I posted and what Phelps does with 'God Hates Fags', do you think an objective observer would conclude that these were similar reactions?

[Lorizael]

Congratulations, you're not quite as bad as Fred Phelps.

[rah]

There's a big difference between sharing your beliefs in a way that might elicit a positive response and being an ass-wipe about it. Please point to a place in the bible that tells you to be an ass-wipe about it. If not, stop using the bible to justify your being an ass-wipe.

[Ben Kenobi]

There's a big difference between sharing your beliefs in a way that might elicit a positive response and being an ass-wipe about it. Please point to a place in the bible that tells you to be an ass-wipe about it. If not, stop using the bible to justify your being an ass-wipe.

He claims to be a Christian not an atheist; you are treating him like an atheist and not a Christian.

1 Corinthians 5

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

[Lorizael]

Alright. At this point both my cardiologist and my therapist are gonna be unhappy with me, so I think I'm done with this thread.

[giblets]

I realize that. Which is why I thought about it.

Yes, it's saving souls. Fun's soul. If you believed that he was on the wrong path, wouldn't you want to say something? What did Jesus say about the one sheep that was lost? That he was willing to leave the other 99 to go look for the one lost sheep.

99 sheep whom Jesus trusted enough to stay with him while he chased after the one.

Is this the same 'Jesus' who said he spoke in parables because he didn't want everyone to understand his message, change their ways and be forgiven?

[rah]

Hmm, aren't there some Christian denominations that don't have a problem with gays? Or am I mistaken and he's claimed to be a Catholic.