Intrade: 70.5% chance Obama will win third debate

[snoopy369]

Though, I'd imagine that a decent amount of those who would consider themselves strongly pro-choice would find it highly distastful to abort based on the child having Down's Syndrome, right?

I think that's one of the more difficult questions people will face in life, if it comes to them to make. I think the discussions of politicians and non-parents are utterly meaningless in that particular question. Making the decision between raising a child whose life will be extremely difficult, may not live very long, and will certainly detract from your ability to raise the rest of your children (if any), versus terminating the life of your child? And once it's 20 weeks, I don't think too many mothers-to-be would disagree with that terminology, pro-choice included. And where do future (not yet conceived) children fit in - if your first has Downs, you may not have the resources to have another.

I think it comes down to the 'quality of life vs. life' debate, which has raged eternal and will continue to do so until we discover immortality and nanobot-based medicine guaranteeing perfect health for all. Some people would prefer to have life under any circumstances, some believe the quality is relevant. I don't think you can have that discussion in a vacuum, and I don't think, again, that it's a discussion that has an answer beyond the personal. I'm just glad that my wife and I didn't have to make that decision (which was a concern for us, given we were both in our thirties when our son was born).

[rah]

So the prescribed course of psychological treatment for pregnancy resulting from rape is an abortion? Getting an abortion isn't going to unrape these women, just the opposite. It compounds her suffering.

You're not an expert on psychological treatments,
You have no experience with being raped,
You have no experience with getting an abortion.

What the heck do you know?

[snoopy369]

So it's ok for a society to declare certain classes of unpersons as subhuman?

Biologically, you were a 5 week old embryo. All of us were - we couldn't have become who we are now without having been a 5 week old embryo, just like we were infants, toddlers and children at one point and time.

This is why abortion is wrong - it denies this biological truth that there is continuity of the person from conception onwards.

Sorry, have to call BS on that one, Ben. Your argument is perfectly acceptable as a religious/moral/spiritual one. Biologically there is no 'truth', and there is no 'person'. If you want to take this to pure science there's no true difference between people and the cows that went into your hamburger, other than a split in the evolutionary tree a few dozen millions of years ago. Please don't try to make scientific arguments when you have perfectly reasonable spiritual/moral/religious arguments you can make that are actually valid.

[MRT144]

You're not an expert on psychological treatments,
You have no experience with being raped,
You have no experience with getting an abortion.

What the heck do you know?

What his rapist papist chruch taught him.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You're not an expert on psychological treatments,
You have no experience with being raped,
You have no experience with getting an abortion.

What the heck do you know?

Neither are you... does that mean you should have no say in a moral issue? To be honest, its akin to saying you should have no say if Jewish people can circumsize their children because you have no experiences in having your people being nearly exterminated.

[DinoDoc]

That's what happens when Ben hatred clouds judgement. It starts to make you stupid.

[regexcellent]

Ben says a lot of retarded stuff but it's actually pretty hard to be consistently wrong, 100% of the time. As far as I can tell, only Oerdin has actually been able to manage that.

[rah]

Neither are you... does that mean you should have no say in a moral issue? To be honest, its akin to saying you should have no say if Jewish people can circumsize their children because you have no experiences in having your people being nearly exterminated.

Read better next time. Ben said " just the opposite. It compounds her suffering." How would he know? That was the expertise I was questioning.
I didn't claim I knew. If ben limits his crap to moral issues, fine. But when he claims that an abortion automatically compounds her suffering, he's talking out of his ass.

And for the record, I am circumcised so at least I have some experience there.

[Ben Kenobi]

How would he know? That was the expertise I was questioning.

I've done counselling and I have been trained in it. I have spoken to women who've come in the office, before. I am not great over the phones (for obvious reasons), but I've worked with them when they come in and want someone to talk to.

[snoopy369]

What his rapist papist chruch taught him.

This is the sort of fundamentalist left-leaning comments I'm talking about... not helpful for the discussion any more so than the right-leaning fundy BS.

[Guynemer]

Frankly, no I don't. I've had medical professionals argue that had they had a child like me, they would have aborted the child if they had known early enough.

So where do you draw the line between, 'disabled', and 'not disabled enough, Guy? Right now society aborts something like 95 percent of all those with Down's syndrome.

The point is that a 'normal' life is irrelevant. Aborting people because they aren't 'like us' for having a disability is no different that aborting them because they have a different skin color.

If you are actually comparing your experience to those of the typical 24-week premie, you are--against all odds--a bigger ******* than I previously imagined.

[Ben Kenobi]

Biologically there is no 'truth', and there is no 'person'.

Nonsense. Men are considered responsible for the child they conceive even if they did not want the child. All that is required is a DNA test to confirm that the child is in fact his. This assumes continuity of the person, and the science is well established. If we can prove the parenthood of the child through their DNA, then we can also state that there is continuity of identity.

Biologically the child outside of the womb is no different from the embryo at 5 weeks. It's the same child.

Please don't try to make scientific arguments

When you cannot refute them, then yes, I will continue to use them.

[rah]

If you had said it might compound her suffering, you might have convinced me that you actually had some expertise, but by saying it automatically is the opposite and increases her suffering, tells me your training was flawed and I pity the women you counsel about it. Every person is different. There is not ever one cookie cutter solution.

[Ben Kenobi]

Answer the question, Guy.

So where do you draw the line between, 'disabled', and 'not disabled enough', Guy?

[rah]

If you are actually comparing your experience to those of the typical 24-week premie, you are--against all odds--a bigger ******* than I previously imagined.

And you're surprised?