Intrade: 70.5% chance Obama will win third debate

[snoopy369]

Do you concede that a geneticist would be able to easily distinguish between the two?

I can distinguish between a tree and a bird by looking at them, but that doesn't tell me why it's okay to kill a pig and not a person. Science does not explain this because science is not about morality or 'should'. Science is amoral, agnostic, a-everything. Basing a moral argument entirely on science is like basing a chess strategy on the clouds floating by in the sky.

[Ben Kenobi]

Snoopy - I understand what you are saying, but we need to confirm the presuppositions first.

So, could we not conclude from this that there is then continuity of existence from the toddler to the embryo, since the DNA is a match?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I can distinguish between a tree and a bird by looking at them, but that doesn't tell me why it's okay to kill a pig and not a person. Science does not explain this because science is not about morality or 'should'. Science is amoral, agnostic, a-everything. Basing a moral argument entirely on science is like basing a chess strategy on the clouds floating by in the sky.

Amen!

& Ben the issue with confirming the pre-suppositions is that you likely won't get a match on those. My experience has been, and continues to be, that no one is convinced through deep rational debates where there is a race towards getting a "common ground" on the presuppositions or starting point so you can reason them into your point of view - people are convinced through emotional changes & changes of the heart. That's why narratives like "Uncle Tom's Cabin" were likely more influential in creation abolishionists than rational debate.

[MRT144]

This is the sort of fundamentalist left-leaning comments I'm talking about... not helpful for the discussion any more so than the right-leaning fundy BS.

It's not leftist, It's pure papist hating.

[Elok]

The abortion "debate," such as it is, is insoluble because the differing POVs depend on fundamentally different conceptions of what gives human life meaning or worth (humanity itself being sacred versus humans being valued for their distinctly human capabilities). That's about as deep-seated as a disagreement can get. At this point I'd accept a compromise--wrong on principle, yet better than what we have--but it won't happen.

Also, die-hard opposition to contraception sabotages the whole pro-life position.

[MRT144]

Do you seriously want to ask this question?

Already answered that question with the crass response.

[Guynemer]

And you're surprised?

Oddly, yes. There must still be an optimist deep within my cynical soul.

[MRT144]

The abortion "debate," such as it is, is insoluble because the differing POVs depend on fundamentally different conceptions of what gives human life meaning or worth (humanity itself being sacred versus humans being valued for their distinctly human capabilities). That's about as deep-seated as a disagreement can get. At this point I'd accept a compromise--wrong on principle, yet better than what we have--but it won't happen.

Also, die-hard opposition to contraception sabotages the whole pro-life position.

If you want to kill future babies, use a condom all day buddy.

[regexcellent]

I don't think there are that many people who are actually anti-contraception. Maybe Ben? I don't know if he is or not. That's less about life than it is about the purpose of sex and so forth.

[MRT144]

I don't think there are that many people who are actually anti-contraception. Maybe Ben? I don't know if he is or not. That's less about life than it is about the purpose of sex and so forth.

It's just about arbitrarily where persons are made and what legal remedies should be made based on those arbitrary distinctions.

[Elok]

If you want to kill future babies, use a condom all day buddy.

Wearing it all day would probably be uncomfortable and not very good for the condom. Abrasion, drying, stuff like that. You should know that.

[MRT144]

Wearing it all day would probably be uncomfortable and not very good for the condom. Abrasion, drying, stuff like that. You should know that.

Condom Free since 2003!

[Hauldren Collider]

I don't think there are that many people who are actually anti-contraception. Maybe Ben? I don't know if he is or not. That's less about life than it is about the purpose of sex and so forth.

This. The catholic church's beliefs regarding contraception aren't because they think that sperm are people. They don't. They think that sex is just for reproduction and stuff. On that, I think they can go **** themselves. On abortion, I'm inclined to agree with them.

[regexcellent]

Condom Free since 2003!

Uh, don't you have herpes?

[Elok]

I restrained myself from the obvious low blow about herpes. I now demand recognition for my restraint.

Re: contraception, I know it's separate in Catholic teaching...but there's widespread opposition to comprehensive sex-ed or the promotion of contraceptives in general. If people don't want kids, aren't interested in abstinence, and can't avoid becoming pregnant, it creates a market for what service?