"I no longer want to live on this planet."

[Guynemer]

Actually, I'm out of this argument. I need to reconnect with my inner Buddha nature, before I cut a *****. I'll just put Ben on mental ignore until the draft is over and I can do it for reals.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ok, while Ben has complete and utter loony positions, this one must be up there. Any building damaged by 9/11 in any way = Ground Zero?! WTF?!

Personally, I think pushing for a mosque at Ground Zero is insane. It's a public relations fiasco! Lots to lose, and yes, much to gain, but completely unnecessary and provocative.

[giblets]

Ok, while Ben has complete and utter loony positions, this one must be up there. Any building damaged by 9/11 in any way = Ground Zero?! WTF?!

Does that include the Pentagon?

[Ben Kenobi]

Funny Gribbler didn't mention PA... Oh wait, that's because they do have a memorial there.

My gosh, I wonder why they can't do the same in NY? It's been 9 years!

[Dr Strangelove]

The planned commuity center, which has a mosque inside, isn't at ground zero, it's about 3 blocks away. There are tall buildings between it and ground zero, so it can't be seen from ground zero.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's a shorter walk from the proposed ground zero mosque at 2 blocks away, than it is to walk across the former WTC plaza.

[Elok]

Yeah, because we all know that Islam isn't the religion for violent thugs...oh wait, it is.

Also the religion for millions of Americans who haven't committed any crime more dire than traffic infractions, but keep up that hateful fantasy if it's what makes you happy.

Look, Jihad is an essential part of Islam. That much has been driven home. You are making excuses where none need to be made. This isn't the first, nor will it be the last terrorist attack conducted by Muslims.

Yeah, Jihad is an essential part of Islam, but the word can have like five different meanings or interpretations. I can't even imagine what it means to Sufis. Probably it just means that they stop hugging you and giving you candy until you put your gun away.

Never said this. I did say that Muslims were responsible for the terrorist attack, which is true. And muslims will bear responsibility.

...and in saying that, you are treating the world's Muslims as a monolithic entity, complete with collective guilt. Certain Muslims (of some sort) killed people, therefore certain other Muslims (of any sort) bear responsibility.

Ground zero still hasn't replaced the WTC towers, which is why I don't think there should be any new construction until this is finished. Period.

I have less experience arguing with you than some here, but I think you've just laid the foundation for a shiny new set of goalposts here.

[Ben Kenobi]

Also the religion for millions of Americans who haven't committed any crime more dire than traffic infractions, but keep up that hateful fantasy if it's what makes you happy.

Right, they have special status because they are Americans. I see. I don't think it matters, American or not. If your religion teaches that it is ok to kill civilians, than I have a problem with your religion.

From what I can see, Islam has made this not just an isolated thing, but a worldwide goal, quest and mission to kill as many infidels as they can. I have a problem with that.

Yes, not everyone who practices Islam believes in this, and many people in Islamic countries are oppressed by the system of Sharia law that they want to impose on everyone else. You are spot on there.

This is why I don't want to see Sharia practiced in the US. You seem to put a gloss on it, but I know good friends of mine that deal with this whole 'dishonouring' thing where their lives are forfeit. I've helped them escape.

the word can have like five different meanings

Right. I suppose submit or die is not one of them. All these different meanings, that mean the same thing.

Never said this. I did say that Muslims were responsible for the terrorist attack, which is true. And muslims will bear responsibility.
...and in saying that, you are treating the world's Muslims as a monolithic entity,

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Fact A - 9-11 was committed by Muslim Terrorists intent on killing as many civilians as possible.

Fact B - Muslims will bear the responsibility for 9-11. The ones who committed the crime, who aided them, who assisted them, will do the time.

Do you acknowledge both of these facts?

I have less experience arguing with you than some here, but I think you've just laid the foundation for a shiny new set of goalposts here.

Except that's been my argument the whole time.

Perhaps the Hagia Sophia isn't a symbol...

[giblets]

Funny Gribbler didn't mention PA... Oh wait, that's because they do have a memorial there.

My gosh, I wonder why they can't do the same in NY? It's been 9 years!

Do they have a memorial at the pentagon yet? I honestly don't know.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes they do.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/09/11/pentagon.memorial/index.html

[giblets]

Well the community center doesn't even have funding yet, so maybe a ground zero memorial will be completed first.

[giblets]

So if islam is inherently violent and aggressive why are there so many muslims who don't advocate killing people?

[Elok]

Right, they have special status because they are Americans. I see. I don't think it matters, American or not. If your religion teaches that it is ok to kill civilians, than I have a problem with your religion.

I mentioned America because the "mosque" in question would be built in America, and serve/represent primarily American Muslims. And if more than a tiny smattering of those were routinely taught to kill civilians, we would have a lot more dead civilians, because we have millions of Muslims.

From what I can see, Islam has made this not just an isolated thing, but a worldwide goal, quest and mission to kill as many infidels as they can. I have a problem with that.

Again, referring to Islam as a single concrete entity. And if that's their goal, they're doing a remarkably ****ty job of pursuing it, or even passing on the message, because only the minutest handful of Muslims actually kill anyone. And a number of the ones who do kill, kill other Muslims.

Yes, not everyone who practices Islam believes in this, and many people in Islamic countries are oppressed by the system of Sharia law that they want to impose on everyone else. You are spot on there.

This is why I don't want to see Sharia practiced in the US. You seem to put a gloss on it, but I know good friends of mine that deal with this whole 'dishonouring' thing where their lives are forfeit. I've helped them escape.

Nobody mentioned Sharia here, this private organization would have no power to impose Sharia, ergo this is irrelevant.

Right. I suppose submit or die is not one of them. All these different meanings, that mean the same thing.

Precisely. When a Mullah/Imam/whatever somewhere says he views Jihad as a primarily spiritual struggle of passive resistance and forbearance, he means we should crack out the AKs. It's all a code! Also, historically--for Christians and Jews, at least--it was "submit or be treated as a second-class citizen," unless by "submit" you mean not resisting the military power of Islamic conquerors. And not "submitting" in that sense is generally a death sentence regardless of anyone's religion.

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Fact A - 9-11 was committed by Muslim Terrorists intent on killing as many civilians as possible.

Fact B - Muslims will bear the responsibility for 9-11. The ones who committed the crime, who aided them, who assisted them, will do the time.

Do you acknowledge both of these facts?

Uh, only one of them is a fact, namely the first. The second is merely your (deranged) opinion about collective guilt, followed by a statement concerning aiding and abetting which has no relevance to the totally uninvolved Muslims who want to build Cordoba House. Until you can find any connection whatsoever between this group and AQ, this is empty bull****.

Except that's been my argument the whole time.

Perhaps the Hagia Sophia isn't a symbol...

I have no idea why you're dragging the HS into this. And it hasn't been your argument this whole time; AFAICT your argument this whole time has been "One Muslim = All Muslims = Islam."

[Hauldren Collider]

So if islam is inherently violent and aggressive why are there so many muslims who don't advocate killing people?

They ain't real sandpeople, duh

For the morons: just joking

[Hauldren Collider]

If any of you retards (by which I mean BEN) want to protest something that might legitimately be related to terrorism, I've got a place nearby y'all could picket for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Saudi_Academy

NB: It might not be related to terrorism, but it's got a couple jihadist alums.