"I no longer want to live on this planet."

[Ben Kenobi]

The Church executed "heretics" who never hurt anyone.

You, I suppose are familiar with Munster? How the civil authorities were overthrown and great unrest occurred?

'Heretics', can and did hurt people. This is why for example, some explicitly declared themselves to be pacifist.

What did Giordano Bruno do that deserved being burned alive?

He denied that Christ himself was God, but was a magician, among other things. He travelled to many places, and was exiled from the Lutherans, and from the Calvinists. When he appeared in Venice he was arrested for disturbing the peace. They feared insurrection.

Or Jan Hus?

Again, Hus counselled insurrection against the civil authorities.

Thomas More is revered as a saint,

He was executed as well, for the crime of declaring that Christian marriage could not be dissolved.

Perhaps I should mention the priests who were executed by Henry VIII, or the Pilgrimage of Grace, etc. Names which don't appear in today's history books because they don't fit the narrative.

[giblets]

How? The Prophet died on June 8, 632. The Byzantine-Arab Wars didn't start until 634. The Battle of Yarmouk was in August 636.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Ben is just making up crap.

[Ben Kenobi]

You know it's funny. People who have tried and tried and tried to take the focus off Islam seem to forget that people are dying today because they are Christian. I have a problem with this, but apparently most folks don't care. Yet, I'm prejudiced for pointing out this fact. Interesting how that works.

Tomorrow perhaps I'll wake up and hear of 3000 Americans dead by a suicide bomb.

The day after I'll hear people say that Islam was not responsible.

[Asher]

Those poor Christians who are repeatedly slaughtered for being Christians. There are so many of them.

[Ben Kenobi]

How? The Prophet died on June 8, 632. The Byzantine-Arab Wars didn't start until 634. The Battle of Yarmouk was in August 636.

Are you suggesting that Muhammed wasn't all for this whole conquest thing, and that two years was sufficient time for a radical shift in policy to peaceful coexistance?

[giblets]

When a religion has 1.5 billion adherents, even .01% of them (150,000) can be wreak havoc across the globe.. Suicide attacks here and there are not going to change my opinion of the group as a whole because I'm not a bigot with no sense of scale.

[Ben Kenobi]

When a religion has 1.5 billion adherents, even .01% of them (150,000) can be wreak havoc cross the globe.. Suicide attacks here and there are not going to change my opinion of the group as a whole because I'm not a bigot with no sense of scale.

Right, so 3000 innocents mean nothing to you? Are you honestly saying that you'd be making this argument if it were Christians who were responsible for 9-11? I think we both know the answer to that one.

These are people gribbler. People who lived and died, who had families, brothers sisters, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers. All gone, because of a religion that preaches death to the infidels. Death to those who worshipped the temple of the Great Satan, while they were going about their lives.

I wonder what Gribbler would think if it were someone he knew, whether he would brush it off as 'not having a sense of scale'. I daresay it wouldn't be the case.

[Asher]

Why do you assume the people who died were Christian?

These are people gribbler. People who lived and died, who had families, brothers sisters, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers. All gone, because of a religion that preaches death to the infidels.

I'm just wading into this thread, but I'm pleased that you are finally discussing the Crusades with the lens of reality.

[giblets]

Right, so 3000 innocents mean nothing to you?

No, I don't think they mean nothing.

Are you honestly saying that you'd be making this argument if it were Christians who were responsible for 9-11?

Nope. Every group of people has its sickos.

These are people gribbler. People who lived and died, who had families, brothers sisters, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers. All gone, because of a religion that preaches death to the infidels. Death to those who worshipped the temple of the Great Satan, while they were going about their lives.

So you think the majority of the 1.5 billion muslims are out to kill the infidels?

I wonder what Gribbler would think if it were someone he knew, whether he would brush it off as 'not having a sense of scale'. I daresay it wouldn't be the case.

I wouldn't blame all muslims when al-qaeda is a tiny minority.

[Boris Godunov]

You, I suppose are familiar with Munster? How the civil authorities were overthrown and great unrest occurred?

Yes, and why on earth would you cite it while trying to claim that the Church never forced anyone to be Catholics? The entire rebellion was based on the Catholic authorities suppressing an alternative Christian belief, to the point where their savagery compelled the people to kick out the Bishop. The Church then laid siege to the city and, upon reconquering it, brutally tortured and executed the leaders of the rebellion, displaying their corpses in cages. How very Christ-like of them.

'Heretics', can and did hurt people. This is why for example, some explicitly declared themselves to be pacifist.

Most if not all of the people I listed never hurt anyone. Justifying their torturous murders by the Church under the paltry excuse that their heresy could lead to political unrest completely undermines your absurd claims that the Church never coerced people.

He denied that Christ himself was God, but was a magician, among other things. He travelled to many places, and was exiled from the Lutherans, and from the Calvinists. When he appeared in Venice he was arrested for disturbing the peace. They feared insurrection.

So people who practice "magic" are legitimate targets for violence? I thought the Church didn't violently coerce people with different beliefs...

There is absolutely no evidence Bruno fostered any insurrections. He had an alternative view of things, and he was excommunicated, arrested and murdered by the Church for them, simple as that. It is ludicrous to pretend the Church didn't coerce people into their orthodoxy when they were burning people for not following it.

Here's the list of charges against Bruno for which he was tried and eventually executed, which was discovered in 1940:

-Holding opinions contrary to the Catholic Faith and speaking against it and its ministers.
-Holding erroneous opinions about the Trinity, about Christ's divinity and Incarnation.
-Holding erroneous opinions about Christ.
-Holding erroneous opinions about Transubstantiation and Mass.
-Claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity.
-Believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes.
-Dealing in magics and divination.
-Denying the Virginity of Mary.

Not a single charge about fomenting civil unrest. Not a single charge accusing him of harming anyone. Every charge is entirely a thought crime, condemning Bruno for his beliefs, not actions. And the Church killed him for this.

Again, Hus counselled insurrection against the civil authorities.

No he didn't. He disagreed with Church doctrines regarding indulgences and wrote to condemn the practice. Church authorities responded by beheading three of his followers. Dominican monks finally lured him into a trap at Constance, lying to Sigismund of Hungary, who had promised Hus safe passage. The church then tried him for heresy, did not allow him to present a defense, and then murdered him. If you consider that justice, then you've really got no moral center to speak of.

He was executed as well, for the crime of declaring that Christian marriage could not be dissolved.

Perhaps I should mention the priests who were executed by Henry VIII, or the Pilgrimage of Grace, etc. Names which don't appear in today's history books because they don't fit the narrative.

And his execution absolves More of having people burned alive... how?

I find it hilarious you would assert that the priests executed by Henry VIII aren't mentioned in history books. That's one of the most absurdly false statements I've seen. Of course, it's also a misdirection, since the issue isn't what other religions have done, it's your patently false claim that the Church has never engaged in violence against nonbelievers. Even the Church admits it has, considering the slew of apologies it has had to make for its crimes against people like Joan of Arc and Galileo.

[DaShi]

A perfectly good thread about Obama gone to waste. And my troll got no bites.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't have a problem with torturing invaders. You come to my land, attack, kill, enslave and torture people, expect the same in return.

Please don't call yourself a Christian. By condoning torture in the name of Jesus, you know the one who counseled turning the other cheek, you are breaking God's heart.

[Boris Godunov]

Why do you think there isn't an existing building? That's because wreckage from 9-11 destroyed the previous building.

Er, I missed this one earlier. Just another example of how BK makes up any **** he feels like to justify his absurdities.

No, Ben, the building was not destroyed. There IS an existing building. It barely suffered any damage at all, it was extremely superficial. It is ALREADY being used for overflow services from the mosque a few blocks away, as it is already owned by the Cordoba Initiative backers. The entire purpose of the meeting with the NYC planning commission was to get permission to tear down the existing building which they already own and construct a new one.

Get a ****ing clue for once.

EDIT: My own clue gotten, there was some significant damage to the roof of the 45 building (there's two on the parcel). But it still wasn't remotely "destroyed."

[Hauldren Collider]

When a religion has 1.5 billion adherents, even .01% of them (150,000) can be wreak havoc across the globe.. Suicide attacks here and there are not going to change my opinion of the group as a whole because I'm not a bigot with no sense of scale.

WHOOSH

You better not be one of those catholics-are-pedophiles people.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Does anyone really think all Catholics are pedophiles? Or even all Catholic priests. Seems to be that it usually is advanced as a troll.