Apologies to BK. You were right about gay marriages.

[David Floyd]

Still waiting on you to address my points, BK. Rebuttal or I'm right.

[giblets]

The context is, "what is the ideal for marriage". The answer, is Adam and Eve.

It's pretty clear to me what he's saying here and why sodomy is sinful. There are plenty of other quotes in the bible on sodomy if you don't like that one.

no the context is:

1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

the topic is divorce...

as for what the ideal is, Jesus seems to be pretty explicit that celibacy is ideal.

10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

So it looks like Jesus isn't too thrilled about any marriage, heterosexual or homosexual

[Ben Kenobi]

Loin:

So you believe that men can rise from the dead?

When the child was grown, the day came that he went out to his father to the reapers.
19He said to his father, "My head, my head." And he said to his servant, "Carry him to his mother."

20When he had taken him and brought him to his mother, he sat on her lap until noon, and then died.

21She went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door behind him and went out.

22Then she called to her husband and said, "Please send me one of the servants and one of the donkeys, that I may run to the man of God and return."

23He said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor sabbath." And she said, "It will be well."

24Then she saddled a donkey and said to her servant, "Drive and go forward; do not slow down the pace for me unless I tell you."

25So she went and came to the man of God to Mount Carmel. When the man of God saw her at a distance, he said to Gehazi his servant, "Behold, there is the Shunammite.

26"Please run now to meet her and say to her, 'Is it well with you? Is it well with your husband? Is it well with the child?'" And she answered, "It is well."

27When she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught hold of his feet. And Gehazi came near to push her away; but the man of God said, "Let her alone, for her soul is troubled within her; and the LORD has hidden it from me and has not told me."

28Then she said, "Did I ask for a son from my lord? Did I not say, 'Do not deceive me'?"

29Then he said to Gehazi, "Gird up your loins and take my staff in your hand, and go your way; if you meet any man, do not salute him, and if anyone salutes you, do not answer him; and lay my staff on the lad's face."

30The mother of the lad said, "As the LORD lives and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." And he arose and followed her.

Then Gehazi passed on before them and laid the staff on the lad's face, but there was no sound or response. So he returned to meet him and told him, "The lad has not awakened."

When Elisha came into the house, behold the lad was dead and laid on his bed.

So he entered and shut the door behind them both and prayed to the LORD.

And he went up and lay on the child, and put his mouth on his mouth and his eyes on his eyes and his hands on his hands, and he stretched himself on him; and the flesh of the child became warm.

Then he returned and walked in the house once back and forth, and went up and (Z)stretched himself on him; and the lad sneezed seven times and the lad opened his eyes.

He called Gehazi and said, "Call this Shunammite." So he called her. And when she came in to him, he said, "Take up your son."

The Shunammite was an example of resuscitation. Christ was dead three days.

Your second example:

As they were burying a man, behold, they saw a marauding band; and they cast the man into the grave of Elisha. And when the man touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood up on his feet.

The man was never dead. Where are you getting these examples from Loinburger? I expected better from you.

Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, I pray You, let this child's life return to him."

The LORD heard the voice of Elijah, and the life of the child returned to him and he revived

Again, this is resuscitation. There's an example you haven't cited and I'm surprised.

[David Floyd]

You guys are letting BK distract you from the argument and move on to something where he can post blocs of text.

[loinburger]

Way to move the goalposts there, BK "They were only mostly dead!" Pathetic.

[BlackCat]

Sigh.

We can be more sure that the biblical claims are correct than we can about anything else from that time period.

No. There are no evidence that biblical claims are true - actually it's quite opposite. The bible is written several hundred of years after and is a collection of what some people considered would be the most appropriate description of what happened.

[giblets]

If the manuscript evidence is close to scripture, sure. Otherwise, no.

By scripture, are you specifically referring to Christian scripture? Sorry but saying that Christian texts are true because they're Christian doesn't fly.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, what we have are followers of Jesus of Nazareth saying that he did.

Then how do you explain the empty tomb? The Jews admitted that there was an empty tomb because the body was missing.

What we also have is science - you know, that little thing which provides no evidence for people rising from the dead after 3 days.

And your point? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have not observed men becoming monkeys yet the reverse is assumed to be true. Science believes in plenty of things that haven't been observed.

[giblets]

Then how do you explain the empty tomb? The Jews admitted that there was an empty tomb because the body was missing.

So when a dead body goes missing, you normally assume that it resurrected?

[Ben Kenobi]

By scripture, are you specifically referring to Christian scripture? Sorry but saying that Christian texts are true because they're Christian doesn't fly.

I'm referring to the manuscript evidence, ie, the number of copies we have extant, and the time between them and the original date of publication.

[Ben Kenobi]

So when a dead body goes missing, you normally assume that it resurrected?

Why not? How do you explain the empty tomb?

[Ben Kenobi]

Way to move the goalposts there, BK "They were only mostly dead!" Pathetic.

So the difference with being unconscious for a few hours and then revived, is the same as being crucifed, and dying on the cross? There's a big difference between the two.

[David Floyd]

Then how do you explain the empty tomb? The Jews admitted that there was an empty tomb because the body was missing.

Gosh, even assuming the account is accurate, I can't possibly think of any reason for that

And your point? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have not observed men becoming monkeys yet the reverse is assumed to be true. Science believes in plenty of things that haven't been observed.

Oh for ****'s sake. You're taking a scientific premise - the inability to prove a negative - and using it to justify your beliefs. Of course I can't prove that Jesus DIDN'T rise from the dead. But that doesn't imply that it is equally likely that he DID, just because his friends and followers said he did.

As for your asinine argument re: men becoming monkeys vs. monkeys becoming men, you are simply making a verbally deft argument that has nothing to do with reality or scientific theory. Unfortunately, a lot of zealots seem to think it makes logical sense.

[David Floyd]

Why not? How do you explain the empty tomb?

So, to you, resurrection is an equally likely explanation for an empty tomb or grave as is any other explanation?

[Thoth]

If the manuscript evidence fits what I already believe in, sure. Otherwise, no.

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