Apologies to BK. You were right about gay marriages.

[Thoth]

Quoting myself again.

That pretty much sums up your arguments doesn't it?

[loinburger]

Such as?

Ben, ignorant of the Bible??? Color me shocked!

[Ben Kenobi]

You don't have evidence of ANYONE rising from the dead.

Sure, unless you mean to reject scripture because you don't believe that people can rise from the dead, which is circular logic.

We have a testimony from the time period, held by eyewitnesses that testifies that Jesus of Nazareth did in fact rise from the dead.

Edit, just getting caught up with you. One of me.

No, wrong, you ARE asking for that. It's an unfair comparison. Zeus is a supernatural character by definition. Jesus, if he rose from the dead, is also by definition supernatural.

So what's your point? My point is that Jesus, while supernatural is also historical. Same as the Trojan War.

The existence of a historical Troy does not imply a supernatural Zeus. The existence of Jesus of Nazareth does not imply a supernatural Jesus of Nazareth.

Hence the second point, that by the same source which we know of Christ's existance, the same source also says that he rose from the dead.

The point is, while there MAY be historical evidence pointing to the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, there is NOT evidence pointing to his supernaturality.

Actually, there is historical evidence in the Gospel account.

Face it - myths are very, very often based on facts.

Which is they point I was trying to make earlier in the thread...

[Ben Kenobi]

It's your argument, Loin.

Who rose from the dead in the bible? Since you know so much about it, I'm not going to do your homework for you.

[loinburger]

It's your argument, Loin.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%204:32-37;&version=NASB;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%2013:21;&version=NASB;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2017:17-24;&version=NASB;

[giblets]

No, but this logic applies equally to everything else from the period. Ergo, compared to other sources, you are still stuck.

This is a question about reliability.

If you are retreating to the position that yes, the bible is accurate to what was written, but not to actual events, then this same skepticism must apply to other sources in the same time period, of which we are far less certain that what we have today was what was originally written.

So if other texts that are close to the original make supernatural claims, you'll accept them?

[David Floyd]

Sure, unless you mean to reject scripture because you don't believe that people can rise from the dead, which is circular logic.

We have a testimony from the time period, held by eyewitnesses that testifies that Jesus of Nazareth did in fact rise from the dead.

No, what we have are followers of Jesus of Nazareth saying that he did.

What we also have is science - you know, that little thing which provides no evidence for people rising from the dead after 3 days.

Surely you aren't so naive as to think that people can't lie. Hummmm....testimony vs. science, whichever should I believe?

[David Floyd]

And besides, what about eyewitness in Greek mythology? After all, we can show that Troy existed - shouldn't that imply that everything in the Odyssey is true?

[loinburger]

And besides, what about eyewitness in Greek mythology? After all, we can show that Troy existed - shouldn't that imply that everything in the Odyssey is true?

They didn't talk enough about hating the gays

[Ben Kenobi]

That pretty much sums up your arguments doesn't it?

The post answers your question. Next time read up.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jesus says divorce is wrong because husband and wife have been made one flesh, and you conclude that he would be opposed to gay marriage if he was alive today? That's, um, stupid.

Yes, "because he made them male and female." Christ says that the ideal of marriage is Adam and Eve.

[giblets]

Yes, "because he made them male and female." Christ says that the ideal of marriage is Adam and Eve.

Jesus was answering a question about divorce. You're taking his words out of context. Jesus said that divorce is wrong because God made husband and wife one flesh, and he cited something to back up his claim.

[Ben Kenobi]

So BK, did you start out with an irrational hatred of homosexuals

Actually, quite the opposite. Before I posted on Apolyton, I was a supporter of gay marriage. That was some time ago, back in 2002.

As I came to understand Christian marriage better, I realised I was wrong on the topic.

Poly, if anything, has pushed me further right. I've been consistantly drifting to the right economically, at least according to political compass.

then sought out religion to validate it?

No. Actually, quite the opposite. What drew me into Christianity is their support for the unborn. I was a prolifer before I became a Christian. I did prolife stuff in 2000, and converted the following year to the Mennonite Church. I became confirmed in the Catholic church in 2005 for a variety of reasons.

Because that cherrypicked Jesus quote is laughable.

Well fair enough, but I find that quote very significant.

Give us a timeline here: when did you start hating gays, and when did you find religion (for the first or for the second time, whichever you think is relevant)?

I became convinced that gay marriage was wrong in 2002. My position on it hasn't changed since.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jesus was answering a question about divorce. You're taking his words out of context. Jesus said that divorce is wrong because God made husband and wife one flesh, and he cited something to back up his claim.

The context is, "what is the ideal for marriage". The answer, is Adam and Eve.

It's pretty clear to me what he's saying here and why sodomy is sinful. There are plenty of other quotes in the bible on sodomy if you don't like that one.

[Ben Kenobi]

So if other texts that are close to the original make supernatural claims, you'll accept them?

If the manuscript evidence is close to scripture, sure. Otherwise, no.