Apologies to BK. You were right about gay marriages.

[Asher]

We practice some Jewish traditions however.

Like becoming actuaries?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I've read more old testament than new testament, so perhaps my view is skewed. They are rather different, aren't they? That's always been one of the stranger aspects of Christianity in my opinion.

Yes, they are rather different. In form as well as substance. The Gospels and Acts are the historical texts, similar to much of the Old Testament, while the rest of the NT are letters further exploring and explaining Jesus's teachings (kind of like footnotes to Jesus).

The NT are also about forgiveness and love (though plenty of OT works speak on that) and against the legalism of Jewish worship (in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). The idea that strict legalism has prevented people from accepting God into their hearts and instead of God giving his chosen people a long leash, which they use to turn away from God, then have to suffer the penalties so God may forgive them - and the cycle continues onward and onward - God sends his only Son to die for the sins of mankind and to offer perpetual forgiveness, without punishment, for Jews and Gentiles alike. So yeah, in the NT, it appears that God has decided to extend his mercy and grace to all so that the cycle of turning away from God, punishment, forgiveness doesn't extend to perpetuity (ie, you are forgiven for what you've done through the love of God and you don't have to go through all these rituals to attempt to earn His love).

Or something like that

[Jon Miller]

Let's take an example where I think that the Orthodox Jews are wrong. Sabbath observance.

I also keep it by the way, just 'liberally' even for my denomination.

It was a difference in Christ time. Christ said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath", and had some conflict with the religious leadership over His manner of keeping it. He was a Jew, and yet it was still the same issue as today.

So it isn't the difference between Christians and Jews, it is a difference between Jews where the Christians follow the Jew who the religious leaders 2000 years ago rejected.

Jon

[Hauldren Collider]

Like becoming actuaries?

Well played

[Ben Kenobi]

It sounds like Jesus was saying that anyone who does good works in his name will be rewarded. So then how are other denominations invalid?

Because there's only one Church which Christ established. He's not a bigamist and the divisions are a result of disagreements between men, not Christ.

[Ben Kenobi]

I thought the scripture was clear about sodomy, not homosexuality.

Depends on the citation. Romans says that the men were inflamed with lusts for one another and given over to their perversions.

Others refer to sodomy specificially.

[Ben Kenobi]

So now you're given the divine authority to decide for all Christian leaders of all denominations as to what are legitimate disagreements.

Christ is, not me. Scripture is very clear about homosexuality.

Episcopalian leaders who support ordaining gays and lesbians as clergy would strongly disagree with you.

They'd also deny Christ as well.

Not to mention Christians who belong to Metropolitan Community Churches around the world. Not to mention Catholic clergy who disagree with the Vatican's official stance in regard to homosexuality.

So? There's always dissenters to Christ's teachings. They can claim to be Christians, but there are many people who claim the title who would deny Christ to his face.

[Ben Kenobi]

It may seem clear if you read a version of the Bible that says that, but with the new testament it's generally not clear if the original Greek was condemning homosexuality.

No one actually knows for certain what "arsenokoitai" meant.

Religious tolerance org is not a reliable source on this.

The quote is from 1 Corinthians 6:9, which in the greek:

oute pornoi, oute eidwlolatrai, oute moichoi, oute malakoi, oute arsenokoitai...

"not fornicators, not idolators, not adulterers, not catamites, not sodomites."

The reason religious tolerance is confused is because they don't understand that they are talking about catchers and pitchers. That is why they have catamites and sodomites as a pair.

[MrFun]

When I get back home from work, I got a music video to post here for you BK.


stay tuned

[Ben Kenobi]

The Scripture only mentions homosexuality like 6 times. Mostly in the Old Testament (Leviticus twice) and then Paul mentions it in his letters. Jesus Christ never refers to homosexuality.

Sigh.

Jesus says that the ideal of marriage is between Adam and Eve. The ideal is not temporal, but is for all time. This is the point of what he was getting at when he says, "it wasn't like this in the beginning". The mosaic code watered down marriage, in permitting husbands to divorce their wives. The ideal is Adam and Eve, man and woman.

It's why the Holy Spirit was sent to us, so that God's Living Word could be further revealed as we, humanity, are ready for it. In the same way that the Holy Spirit revealed to us that slavery was against God's will, It comes to us on all manner of things.

Not a good example. Christ says that we have a true Master in heaven. How is that supportive of slavery if you have a false master?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jesus says that the ideal of marriage is between Adam and Eve. The ideal is not temporal, but is for all time. This is the point of what he was getting at when he says, "it wasn't like this in the beginning". The mosaic code watered down marriage, in permitting husbands to divorce their wives. The ideal is Adam and Eve, man and woman.

Jesus is speaking to a peoples who have no concept of homosexual marriage. One cannot try to stretch Jesus's teachings on divorce to be a negative view of homosexuality considering that he is speaking Jews on their level.

Not a good example. Christ says that we have a true Master in heaven. How is that supportive of slavery if you have a false master?

Considering that many Christians considered slavery to be a-ok, as Paul tells slaves to obey their earthly masters, I think there is quite a bit of disagreement on the matter. Heavenly master doesn't automatically mean earthly masters are wrong, after he gives to Caesar (the earthly master) that which is Caesar's.

They'd also deny Christ as well.

Considering you preach hatred, I'd say you deny Christ most of all. See 1 Cor 13:8-13.

[Asher]

When I get back home from work, I got a music video to post here for you BK.


stay tuned

[giblets]

Religious tolerance org is not a reliable source on this.

The quote is from 1 Corinthians 6:9, which in the greek:

oute pornoi, oute eidwlolatrai, oute moichoi, oute malakoi, oute arsenokoitai...

"not fornicators, not idolators, not adulterers, not catamites, not sodomites."

The reason religious tolerance is confused is because they don't understand that they are talking about catchers and pitchers. That is why they have catamites and sodomites as a pair.

"Malakoi" is translated in both Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 as "soft" (KJV) or as "fine" (NIV) in references to clothing. It could also mean "loose" or "pliable," as in the phrase "loose morals," implying "unethical behavior." In the early Christian church, the words were interpreted by some as referring to persons who are pliable, easily influenced, without courage or stability. Non-Biblical writings of the era used the world to refer to lazy men, men who cannot handle hard work, and cowards.

[John] Wesley's Bible Notes defines "Malakoi" as those:

"Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship. But how is this? These good-natured, harmless people are ranked with idolaters and sodomites! We may learn hence, that we are never secure from the greatest sins, till we guard against those which are thought the least; nor, indeed, till we think no sin is little, since every one is a step toward hell." 3

One knowledgeable but anonymous reviewer of our web site said that "Malakoi" really means:

"... men not working or advancing ideas so as to concern themselves with love only. Not working for the good of the whole....Our present culture has all sorts of connotations associated with the word 'effeminate' that simply don't apply [to Paul's era]." 4

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm

proposed meanings of "arsenokoitai":
-"Homosexual offenders"
-"Male prostitutes in Pagan temples"
-"Pimp"
-"Masturbators" (was universally accepted in the time of Martin Luther)
-"Abusive pedophiles"
-"Male prostitutes"
-"A boy sex slave"
http://www.religioustolerance.org/homarsen.htm

There isn't unversal acceptance of the homosexuality interepretation. Your "catchers and pitchers" theory is pure speculation and it doesn't even conflict with many other interpretations, like the theory that they're talking about the Greek practice of pederasty. I'd say there's plenty of room for Christians to disagree with your interpretation of what scripture says about homosexuality.

I guess you can claim that your interpretation of the original Greek is the one true Christian interpretation and everyone who disagrees isn't Christian, but that makes all of those people centuries ago who thought "arsenokoitai" was talking about masturbation "not Christian".

Also, I think your attempt to reject a source on the basis of it not agreeing with you is pathetic.

[Ben Kenobi]

Considering you preach hatred, I'd say you deny Christ most of all. See 1 Cor 13:8-13.

Proverbs 15:32. Right back atcha.

[Ben Kenobi]

Masturbators" (was universally accepted in the time of Martin Luther)

Your "catchers and pitchers" theory is pure speculation

Erm, no. I'm even going halfway by using King James. They rendered the greek as catamite and sodomite. As does Jerome.

Again, religious tolerance org is not a reliable source.

Also, I think your attempt to reject a source on the basis of it not agreeing with you is pathetic.

I reject it because it's not intended to be used as a source of reliable biblical interpretation.

These good-natured, harmless people are ranked with idolaters and sodomites!

So you are conceding that John Wesley translates arsenkotai as sodomite?

Look, if you want to use Wesley as a source, you have to concede the point that Arsenkotai refers to sodomites.