Apologies to BK. You were right about gay marriages.

[MikeH]

This is why Ben's views are so obnoxious.

He's made up his mind homosexuality is wrong and nothing will convince him that his view, one of a many interpretations of the bible, is wrong. Despite it being absolutely ludicrous to take such a strong view on something that's mentioned so tenuously and ambiguously.

People like Jon Miller and Imran, many other branches of Christianity, which are completely legitimate despite Ben's assertion they aren't, interpret it in a much more loving and forgiving way, which are the main things Jesus tries to teach.

I don't consider it Christian to use your faith to excuse hate and prejudice. It's disgusting.

[Nikolai]

Jesus drank alcohol. Isn't that a sin?

Edit: forgot Ben's a catholic now.

Wine and alcohol, in moderation, is spoken well of in the Bible.

[Ming]

This is why Ben's views are so obnoxious.

He's made up his mind homosexuality is wrong and nothing will convince him that his view, one of a many interpretations of the bible, is wrong. Despite it being absolutely ludicrous to take such a strong view on something that's mentioned so tenuously and ambiguously.

People like Jon Miller and Imran, many other branches of Christianity, which are completely legitimate despite Ben's assertion they aren't, interpret it in a much more loving and forgiving way, which are the main things Jesus tries to teach.

I don't consider it Christian to use your faith to excuse hate and prejudice. It's disgusting.

He is also guilty of the sin of PRIDE. He thinks that he not only speaks for all catholics, but all christians as well. All he speaks for are the catholics that practice hate and prejudice... while totally ignoring Christ's teaching of love and understanding. While all christian faiths disagree on many things, even many Catholics disagree on interpretations of scripture. How he thinks he can be the sole determiner of who is really a catholic, let alone a christian... The sin of Pride. Jesus would not approve.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Just the opposite. He chooses the lowly. Those without influence because they are far better at seeing people as they truly are, not as they would want themselves to appear.

Why exactly do you think the lowly are necessarily less persuasive? You think the rich are only ones who are given the gift of persuasion?

That's true. But for those who call themselves Christians, we are most certainly called to judge them by his standards.

And then they may judge you by His standards as well. But I really don't think Jesus was into the whole judgment thing. In fact, I think he was appauled by those who act as they are better in faith and criticize how others are acting while they have sin of their own. Jesus preached love, tolerance, and forgiveness, not judgment. The only one who has the power to judge others is our Lord. We can make judgments for ourselves and to those who come to us to check themselves, but others have their own pathway.

[MikeH]

[Guynemer]

It is discussions like this that make me glad I rejected religion when I was 10.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why exactly do you think the lowly are necessarily less persuasive? You think the rich are only ones who are given the gift of persuasion?

I didn't say that. I said he's not necessarily interested in persuasion when he tests people.

And then they may judge you by His standards as well. But I really don't think Jesus was into the whole judgment thing.

He says go and sin no more. I think that's an important thing to remember. He had zero patience for those who claimed to be his followers, and yet did not follow his ways.

In fact, I think he was appauled by those who act as they are better in faith and criticize how others are acting while they have sin of their own.

Have I said that I am better in faith? No. All I have said is that Jesus says that homosexuality is sinful. That's it. I don't think you can defend the indefensible without turning in your Christian credentials. It's not because I haven't sinned that I am criticising your position, it's because it's contrary to what Christ teaches.

Jesus preached love, tolerance, and forgiveness, not judgment.

He also preached repentence. Turning away from sin.

The only one who has the power to judge others is our Lord.

Wrong. Believers can judge other believers, "you know them by their fruits".

[Ben Kenobi]

He's made up his mind homosexuality is wrong and nothing will convince him that his view, one of a many interpretations of the bible, is wrong.

I find this statement rather amusing. People criticise me and call me a bigot because I take up an interpretation in scripture. If you were sincerely interested in what scripture had to say, then you wouldn't be calling me a bigot for disagreeing with you.

Despite it being absolutely ludicrous to take such a strong view on something that's mentioned so tenuously and ambiguously.

This is the biggest lie of the thread, it's been mentioned many times in scripture and condemned outright. It's mentioned in the OT and in the NT, and Christ never says that the OT has changed on this point.

People like Jon Miller and Imran, many other branches of Christianity, which are completely legitimate despite Ben's assertion they aren't, interpret it in a much more loving and forgiving way, which are the main things Jesus tries to teach.

And they bear responsibility for causing others to fall into sin.

[Ben Kenobi]

He is also guilty of the sin of PRIDE. He thinks that he not only speaks for all catholics,

That would be Pope Benedict XVI. Want to hear what he says about homosexuality?

All he speaks for are the catholics that practice hate and prejudice

All those who are obedient to the faith. Oh sure, there are plenty who dissent, and don't actually follow what Catholicism teaches, but here's a question. Should we listen to the dissenters who follow their own religion, or those who adhere to what the church teaches? I think we should listen to the pope, not Ming, but perhaps he'd disagree.

While all christian faiths disagree on many things, even many Catholics disagree on interpretations of scripture. How he thinks he can be the sole determiner of who is really a catholic, let alone a christian... The sin of Pride. Jesus would not approve.

And you'd think he'd approve of your conduct of calling yourself something that you no longer believe, and for actively working against his teachings?

[giblets]

All I have said is that Jesus says that homosexuality is sinful.

You are lying. As usual.

[N35t0r]

That would be Pope Benedict XVI. Want to hear what he says about homosexuality?

The Pope also condemned Galileo. Now, apparently, his theory is OK for the church, so don't wait for me to have blind faith what he says.

All those who are obedient to the faith. Oh sure, there are plenty who dissent, and don't actually follow what Catholicism teaches, but here's a question. Should we listen to the dissenters who follow their own religion, or those who adhere to what the church teaches? I think we should listen to the pope, not Ming, but perhaps he'd disagree.

Right. We should also go back to believing that waging wars on the infidels and a Geocentric universe are the way to go, otherwise you're not following the church.

And you'd think he'd approve of your conduct of calling yourself something that you no longer believe, and for actively working against his teachings?

So you say that 1500 year old texts, of which we don't have the original versions, and whose exactitude we can't verify should be taken to the letter, and according to your interpretation? You don't, for a second, consider that Jesus might not think the way you believe he did? Especially since what he said was said in a completely different time?

[Jon Miller]

Why are you attacking the Bible or Christ? Your statements show that you don't know much about them even.

If Ben, or the rest of us, considered your arguments correct, we wouldn't be Christians anymore most likely.

I myself believe that what is in the Gospels is an accurate rendition (there is probably a few errors due to the stories being told ~40 years later and translation errors (which will be in any sort of translation), but definitely what could be considered biographical). I haven't heard Imran or any other practicing Christian maintain otherwise.

You guys are attacking Ben from the standpoint of an atheist/nonChristian, of course he won't take your arguments seriously.

I wouldn't either.

No one who thinks that the gospels are an accurate (as described above) story of Christ's life would.

The point where Ben is wrong in is how Christ treated sinners (they were His followers, the people He forgave, the people who He loved), emphasis, possible cultural/translation issues, and hypocrisy.

I note that Ben has nothing to say to DF who engages in much more in the behaviors condemned in the Bible than Asher or MrFun (if we just want to focus on sexual behaviors). Besides the whole "don't tell your neighbor about the speck in their eye when you have a whole stick in yours". It is true that we are suppose to talk to our fellow Christians, but if it is that serious that they are putting the name of Christ in the mud the response should be to distance ourselves.

Which is what I would like to do with Ben.

JM
(I have occasionally wondered if Ben is just an elaborate troll.)

[Ming]

That would be Pope Benedict XVI. Want to hear what he says about homosexuality?

As pointed out... past Popes believed the world was flat... then I guess God finally corrected them on that matter. Plus, the POPE only speaks for the catholic church, NOT ALL CHRISTIANS.

All those who are obedient to the faith. Oh sure, there are plenty who dissent, and don't actually follow what Catholicism teaches, but here's a question. Should we listen to the dissenters who follow their own religion, or those who adhere to what the church teaches? I think we should listen to the pope, not Ming, but perhaps he'd disagree.

I never claimed that what I say applies to all catholics, let alone all christians. I only question your supposed right to do so. I'm not the one saying who can or can not be a christian... you are.
You are guilty of the sin of pride... repent.

And you'd think he'd approve of your conduct of calling yourself something that you no longer believe, and for actively working against his teachings?

Please point out where I claim I'm a devout catholic. I consider myself a Christian, and a lapsed catholic.
And like many chrisitans, we don't believe the catholic church has a monoply on understanding christ and his teachings. You seem to be the one working against his teachings... by telling lies, spreading hate, judging other people, being so prideful that you think you have the right to determine who is following Christ's teachings... I don't think he would approve of you at all.

[loinburger]

(I have occasionally wondered if Ben is just an elaborate troll.)

Better ban him just to be on the safe side

[Imran Siddiqui]

I didn't say that. I said he's not necessarily interested in persuasion when he tests people.

I think He most definitely is. He uses people so that they may persuade.

He says go and sin no more. I think that's an important thing to remember. He had zero patience for those who claimed to be his followers, and yet did not follow his ways.

And what is sinful is something for each believer to discover through talking with God and asking him. Leviticus says tattoo's are sinful and for some, they believe that they are. For others, they have peace about it.

Have I said that I am better in faith? No. All I have said is that Jesus says that homosexuality is sinful. That's it. I don't think you can defend the indefensible without turning in your Christian credentials. It's not because I haven't sinned that I am criticising your position, it's because it's contrary to what Christ teaches.

A) you have implied you are better in faith

B) you have not even slightly proven that Jesus says homosexuality is sinful

Wrong. Believers can judge other believers, "you know them by their fruits".

That is a warning as to how you may recognize a false prophet. If their actions and teachigns are "bad fruit", then it is not a prophet from God. But that does not become a call to be judgemental. It is a call to avoid those false prophets. God will be the ultimate judge of them. Making an internal judgment about the validity of someone's teaching in order to decide whether to follow them or not is far different than being outwardly judgmental of those with contrary beliefs in order to enforce your version of orthodoxy.

Btw, many Protestants have used that verse to determine the Catholic Church is led by a false prophet. Just sayin'. After all, if you judge, you will be judged in likewise manner.