Apologies to BK. You were right about gay marriages.

[Ben Kenobi]

Exactly! Which is why it's so infuriating when people do treat it as a list of dos and don'ts (but only very selectively choosing which is which, based on their own prejudice). eg. Ben.

How am I being selective? Yes, sodomy is sin. So are quite a few other things. It's not like I'm saying sodomy is sinful and lying is not.

[Jon Miller]

In any case, it seems like the main point we are trying to make about using the bible to know what Jesus thought isn't getting through:

You have a book, which is a compilation of many different writings from a relatively wide period of time, and in different languages, about the life and deeds of, ultimately, this one guy. These writings were actually set on paper many hundreds of years after his death.

Don't you think that claiming to know what he would think on certain matters with 100% certainty is a bit ridiculous?

Err, did you read what I wrote?

The writings were put to papers 10-50 years after His death. They were put down on paper by people who knew Him or knew people who knew Him.

It was written in one, maybe two languages. (I think that some guess that Mathew was originally written in Aramaic, but the rest were Greek)

Saying that Christ said something like what is written in the gospels is quite reasonable, and favorable even.

I don't know where you keep getting the such strange ideas from. It goes against the historical facts.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

You have a book, which is a compilation of many different writings from a relatively wide period of time

OT or NT? OT is very different from the NT.

NT, the writings are from about 55 AD (Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Collossians) to about 90 AD (the Apocalypse). The Gospels are from 60-65 AD, excepting John which is from 75.

in different languages

Two. Aramaic and Greek at least for the NT.

These writings were actually set on paper many hundreds of years after his death

Wrong again. Not more than 20.

[Jon Miller]

The cynics are the ones who think that the Bible was all written 50-60 years after His death (excepting the letters of Paul, which everyone agrees was written within 30 years), and by friends of people who knew Him.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

I am saying that a large portion (probably majority) of Catholics don't give much thought to it, and don't let it really effect their lives. Neither the Bible, nor the Church leadership.

We have a catechism. This is the big difference. The Catechism is our 'manual' per se, but it's all based on Scripture.

Disputes on the catechism usually go to the magisterium, ie priests and bishops. It's not that we don't read the bible, but that we have the supplements to go along with it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I thought the Gospels were more written like 70-90 years after Jesus's death. I mean, I guess that isn't that huge, but it has some implications. And the letters of Paul are more like 30-50 years after.

[Ben Kenobi]

This doesn't work for Protestants, Ben.

Irrelevant. Sin is sin. You aren't going to be saved when it's Christ you face and you tell him that it's ok to sin because you are a protestant.

We are saved by grace alone.

So are we. That doesn't make it ok to say that sin is not sin.

If we strive to live a Christ honoring life, even if we are wrong on certain aspects of what is or what is not sinful, based upon what the Holy Spirit works in our lives (and being baptized in the Holy Spirit, I'm most definitely sure He is with me - though, yes, that's a very Pentacostal belief), we will be saved.

Pentecostal or not, there's nothing wrong with this. However, if you misrepresent Christ's teachings, in permitting sin to occur, you will be held responsible for it. Errors through lack of knowledge and understanding are one thing. Willful blindness is another.

Jesus loves us and is against legalism. As long as we try to live that honors the Lord and believe that he is our Savior and our Master, he will save us.

Indeed, he will. This is why I'm being so strident here. I'm trying to explain why this is an incorrect understanding. I'm not saying, believe in this because my faith is better, I'm just saying, believe in this because this is what Christ teaches. Sodomy is sinful. Having sinful desires is not the issue. Acting on them is. Blessing sin through marriage is a problem because you are blessing sinful behaviour. This is why gay marriage is wrong.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I did what I did because I sincerely believed it to be right and God's will because of his overbearing love for all of his creation. I don't think God will judge me harshly for that (after all, we are all wrong about something or another, what matters is that we strive to live for Jesus and try to honor him the best we can).

True, and I'm most certainly wrong, not only on some of my beliefs but in my actions. This is why I have to go to confession tomorrow. However, on this particular issue, I don't think I am wrong.

(Then again, I also am more universalist and believe that all will be "saved" through God's love, but that Hell is a distancing from God rather than a physical place of torture - more like mental torture knowing God exists and is full of love and grace, but you can't get there... at least not yet)

I disagree, I think scripture is pretty clear that once you die, you don't get any takebacks. That's it.

Furthermore, adultery and incest are choices. Homosexuality is something people are born with and I don't think God would create those who are born homosexual and then say his creation is sinful.

His creation is sinful, though. We all have sinful desires that need to be controlled. This is why Christ's atonement was necessary, to atone for the sins which we bear.

[Ben Kenobi]

I thought the Gospels were more written like 70-90 years after Jesus's death.

Nope, they were written before those who had seen the Lord (the 500), had perished. This was part of the reasoning for writing them in the first place, to preserve the first hand knowledge. They were published before the destruction of the temple.

Corinthians was also written in this period, because Paul challenges those that doubt that the Lord had risen to speak to any of the 500. Implying that there were many, if not most of them, who were still alive.

It would be great to have manuscripts from this period, but so far none have yet been found. The earliest is a fragment of John from about 120 AD.

[Jon Miller]

I thought the Gospels were more written like 70-90 years after Jesus's death. I mean, I guess that isn't that huge, but it has some implications. And the letters of Paul are more like 30-50 years after.

Gospels existed by the time of the guy I quoted up above (Clement) at 96 AD (bits are referred to).

There are some that claim that they were quite 'finished' yet, but there isn't any reason to say that other than speculation.

Those that don't think that Christ could have prophesied that the temple was destroyed, place some of the gospels soon after 70 AD (which was the destruction of the temple).

No one claims that Paul's activity was 30-50 years after 33 AD.

http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/texts/manuscripts.html

John, which pretty much everyone agrees was the last Gospel (and almost book of the Bible), we have copies of (part of) from 125 AD. Note that means the last gospel was written well before 90 years after Christ's death.

JM

[N35t0r]

*sigh*

OK, then, let's start Godwining.

Would you be OK if we based what we teach about Hitler on the writings of 4 neo-nazi biographers who wrote about him in the mid-seventies?

[Ben Kenobi]

Would you be OK if we based what we teach about Hitler on the writings of 4 neo-nazi biographers who wrote about him in the mid-seventies?

Would it be ok if we based what we teach about Trotsky based on writings by Stalinists in the 50s?

Bias is everywhere, NES.

[Jon Miller]

*sigh*

OK, then, let's start Godwining.

Would you be OK if we based what we teach about Hitler on the writings of 4 neo-nazi biographers who wrote about him in the mid-seventies?

I wasn't the one making up stuff in order to discredit Christianity and the Bible.

It would be as if the writings of the 4 neo-nazi biographers were what large portions of people believed now and when people in the future look back at today they are the only things referenced to and that survived.

But why can't you be intellectual/reasonable/logical about this subject?

JM

[N35t0r]

Would it be ok if we based what we teach about Trotsky based on writings by Stalinists in the 50s?

Bias is everywhere, NES.

I'm not the one claiming I know what jesus thinks about everything.

[Imran Siddiqui]

However, on this particular issue, I don't think I am wrong.

Likewise.

I think you are sinning by pride and denial of Jesus's message of love for all. I don't think anyone is convincing anyone here, but I pray that the Holy Spirit finds you and convicts you as well as convinces you of the error of your thought.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No one claims that Paul's activity was 30-50 years after 33 AD.

Oops! I meant birth, not death... I mistyped.