Apologies to BK. You were right about gay marriages.

[Ben Kenobi]

I thought there was a possibility that you'd actually read the New Testament at some point, and would have the obvious counter-claim ready ("Jesus is God so he's allowed to resurrect people")

I thought that was the case. I'm more of a fan of the resuscitation argument. Elijah and Elisha foreshadow Christ's resurrection in both these examples, which is why they are so significant in the OT. But the major distinction, which your theologian touches upon is Christ's resurrection body.

[David Floyd]

BK, I'm just not going to argue with you about the Resurrection - I'm simply not going to.

Let me just ask you this. Do you think the Resurrection is the most likely scenario because it objectively is the most likely scenario, or because the Bible says so?

[Ben Kenobi]

It's odd that BK goes nuts about homosexuals having sex outside of marriage but rarely if ever berates heterosexual sex outside of marriage.

You might want to ask Floyd and Berz about that.

[David Floyd]

Oh, and also:

There is evidence from the Jews that something happened that made the tomb empty.

Well sure, Jews will disagree with me. DUH.

They will disagree on Christ's divinity too.

I don't get it. Should we go with what "the Jews" say, or not? You literally said both those things in successive posts. Try to be consistent, please.

[David Floyd]

You might want to ask Floyd and Berz about that.

Yes, I have taken him to task many times for pretending to be an expert on something he has never done.

[giblets]

Husband and wife, man and woman, adam and eve.

And right you are. Well done.

1. Adam and Eve are never mentioned in Matthew 19... Jesus's argument is based on husband and wife being one flesh, so it's pretty clear that Jesus referenced Genesis in order to back his claim that they're one flesh. It really has nothing to do with whether homosexuality is okay. How exactly do you go from husband and wife being one flesh, to concluding that homosexuality is evil?
2. How do you go from "celibacy is better than homosexuality" to "homosexuality is wrong"? That only makes sense if celibacy is wrong, which is clearly not what Jesus thought.

[Ben Kenobi]

Let me just ask you this. Do you think the Resurrection is the most likely scenario because it objectively is the most likely scenario, or because the Bible says so?

Because I believe it to be objectively the most likely scenario.

I don't think the disciples stole the body because they endured great suffering, and because pschologically they were in no shape to do anything of the sort.

I don't think he simply walked out because they had something like 60 pounds of spices on his chest, and because when the Romans checked, he had blood pour out of his wound.

I think if they had stolen the body, they wouldn't have had the women, who still had faith in Christ find the tomb first. And I don't think Peter would have ran like a lunatic to go and see.

And I also don't think that a certain pharisee on the Damascus road would have converted if he did not truly believe that he'd seen the risen Christ.

[Ben Kenobi]

1. Adam and Eve are never mentioned in Matthew 19...

You, yourself when I quoted that part said he was in fact referring to Genesis and Adam and Eve.

Jesus's argument is based on husband and wife being one flesh, so it's pretty clear that Jesus referenced Genesis in order to back his claim that they're one flesh.

As Husband and wife, which is why he also says, in verse 4, he made them male and female.

It really has nothing to do with whether homosexuality is okay. How exactly do you go from husband and wife being one flesh, to concluding that homosexuality is evil?

Because he takes the time to explicitly spell it out. Male and female, husband and wife, Adam and Eve.

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't get it. Should we go with what "the Jews" say, or not? You literally said both those things in successive posts. Try to be consistent, please.

The Jews are a hostile source. When the Jews who were there at the time accuse the Christians of stealing the body, they are presuming that the tomb was empty. This is very strong evidence that in fact the tomb was empty.

All the Jews had to do was pull out the body of Christ from the tomb, or find the body. They could not. They even posted guards to make sure nothing happened to the body.

[giblets]

You, yourself when I quoted that part said he was in fact referring to Genesis and Adam and Eve.

As Husband and wife, which is why he also says, in verse 4, he made them male and female.

Because he takes the time to explicitly spell it out. Male and female, husband and wife, Adam and Eve.

"God made Adam and Eve, so homosexuality is wrong" is nonsensical.
"God made men and women, so homosexuality is wrong" doesn't constitute a complete argument.
And he never explicitly mentions Adam and Eve...
Yes, he's talking about husbands and wives, but he was asked a question about men divorcing their wives... it's hardly unusual for an answer to a question to involve the question's subject.

[Ben Kenobi]

He said, again, "he made them male and female."

Why?

Why not just have us as male and male or female and female?

[giblets]

He said, again, "he made them male and female."

Why?

Why not just have us as male and male or female and female?

Jesus was citing Genesis to show that God makes husband and wife one flesh, because that's actually relevant to the question that was asked. God creating men and women is not enough to say homosexuality is wrong... you have to introduce additional premises that cannot be found in Matthew 19.

[loinburger]

He said, again, "he made them male and female."

Why?

Why not just have us as male and male or female and female?

Because asexual reproduction has a tendency to make a species more susceptible to parasitic infection. In the Red Queen hypothesis for sexual reproduction it was found that snails (that can reproduce sexually or asexually) that live in regions where they are more prone to parasitic infection (typically along the shore where they can come into contact with the parasite eggs found in bird feces) are more likely to reproduce sexually, whereas the snails living in safer regions (the deeper parts of the lake/river, away from the bird feces) tend to reproduce asexually. Mammals are extremely prone to parasitic infection both from within (e.g. malaria) and without (e.g. ticks), so it is beneficial for them to reproduce sexually rather than asexually. Sexual reproduction juggles around the genes better than asexual reproduction (but is also riskier and requires more energy, so by default asexual reproduction is preferable), and this gene juggling produces more rare genomes. The parasites will specialize and infect the common genomes, tending to leave the rarer genomes alone because it is much more difficult to specialize for them. In time the common genomes will lose ground to the parasites, and the rarer genomes will fill the niches vacated by their dying cousins. Now the rarer genomes become the common genomes, the parasites prey on the common genomes again, and sexual reproduction juggles the genes and produces rare genomes again. This has an effect on human mating practices in that healthy parasite-resistant males become a rarer commodity in regions plagued by parasites (e.g. rainforests) - generally the populations in these regions are more likely to practice polygamy than the populations in more temperate regions with fewer parasites, because it is beneficial for the population if the few healthy males do all of the egg fertilizing. (Signals that a male is healthy are things such as broad shoulders and large jaw, because these indicate that the male is dedicating a great deal of energy towards testosterone production. A male infected with too many parasites cannot spare the energy needed to produce all of this testosterone. It is specifically parasitic infections, not bacterial or viral infections, that have this effect on reproduction - generally a bacterial or viral infection will either kill you or it won't, and if it doesn't kill you then it will have minimal impact on your long-term health. In contrast, a parasitic infection can stay with you for months or years, even for your lifetime, and so it will have a long-term impact on your health which will be displayed in your inability to produce the testosterone needed for broad shoulders and a large jaw.)

[loinburger]

Oh hey speaking of parasites, here's a crustacean that will eat a fish's tongue and then attach itself to the stump. The fish uses the crustacean as though it were its missing tongue (grabbing food and crushing it against the roof of its mouth), meanwhile the crustacean eats a bit of the fish's food.

[Asher]

Just like God intended.