Apologies to BK. You were right about gay marriages.

[Asher]

Holy ****, why was that so funny

[MikeH]

I'm sure. A million times less Christian too.

[Nikolai]

So people dont generally like it when other people run around issuing orders from god? Yeah, its them non-believers with the problem, not these chosen people. Narcissism aint a religion...

oh wait, yes it is

You call me a narcissist? And everyone with a religous belief too?

[Jon Miller]

The question of whether ethics are mandated by divine writ isn't very interesting: it's unlikely that a theist is going to convince an atheist that ethics are mandated by an entity that the atheist doesn't believe in, and it's unlikely that an atheist is going to convince a theist that God is amoral. The question is, does it really matter? If God's laws make sense (i.e. are logical and reasonable) then an atheist can figure them out without (knowingly) speaking directly to God. If on the other hand God's laws are illogical as Ben claims them to be then an atheist won't be able to figure them out without divine inspiration. The question then is: "what divinely mandated laws that are relevant to the atheist are contrary to logic and reason." What immoral acts are the atheist doomed to perform out of ignorance as a result of not receiving or ignoring divine inspiration.

If you read Romans, people without the law (the version given by Moses) still have the law due to their conscience. It isn't for the law that we are Christian (although through the history of man's relationship with God it is possible to have more knowledge of right/wrong than otherwise), rather it is for the good news that through Christ we can be forgiven and transformed.

JM

[Thoth]

Watching that makes me want to put my eyes out with a hot poker. bastard.

[Riesstiu IV]

You call me a narcissist? And everyone with a religous belief too?

You live in a first world country populated by wealthy and educated people. With the plethora of information available to you, there is no reason to believe in a magical sky wizard who dictates laws for men and created the earth six days. Wouldn't you think it stupid for someone to read Lord of the Rings as nonfiction? Well the same goes for the bible or any other religious book.

[BeBMan]

LOTR was clearly a history book about WWII.

[MrFun]

You live in a first world country populated by wealthy and educated people. With the plethora of information available to you, there is no reason to believe in a magical sky wizard who dictates laws for men and created the earth six days. Wouldn't you think it stupid for someone to read Lord of the Rings as nonfiction? Well the same goes for the bible or any other religious book.

But God is not fictitious.

[Riesstiu IV]

God is the boogeyman for adults. Only the weak-minded or the ignorant believe in him/her/it.

[Nikolai]

You live in a first world country populated by wealthy and educated people. With the plethora of information available to you, there is no reason to believe in a magical sky wizard who dictates laws for men and created the earth six days. Wouldn't you think it stupid for someone to read Lord of the Rings as nonfiction? Well the same goes for the bible or any other religious book.

Typical besserwisser hubris.

[Ben Kenobi]

if you get ethics from your heart why does you need to believe in a god to have them? are you saying atheists don't have hearts?

No, I'm saying they tend to have 'personal ethics', which don't apply to anyone else.

[Ming]

Gee... and your "personal ethics" may or may not be shared by those of the same faith, and don't apply to anyone else... so what's your point?

[Ben Kenobi]

If God's laws make sense (i.e. are logical and reasonable) then an atheist can figure them out without (knowingly) speaking directly to God. If on the other hand God's laws are illogical as Ben claims them to be then an atheist won't be able to figure them out without divine inspiration.

Some are, and some aren't. There are some things that an atheist can believe and understand to be moral. Things like, do not murder, do not lie, do not cheat, do not steal, etc.

Other things that pose a great difficulty are those things that have come from divine inspiration. Things like the sacraments, and this includes marriage. Things like the trinity, Christ's atonement, etc.

This is what I was inferring to by groping in the dark. Things like fish on fridays made absolutely no sense. Now I can understand why this was done. There are quite a few cultural things that just don't make any sense unless you have some exposure to scripture and to Christianity.

[Ben Kenobi]

Gee... and your "personal ethics" may or may not be shared by those of the same faith, and don't apply to anyone else... so what's your point?

I think a crucial part of ethics is that they are universal, and that ethics are not personal, they apply to everyone. If you believe in relativism, that contradicts the purpose of ethics, which is to form the moral groundwork, and help someone make right decisions.

If personal ethics are used, then it's not very helpful for other people.

The things that I believe personally, I believe are not in the realm of ethics for that reason.

[Ben Kenobi]

there is no reason to believe in a magical sky wizard who dictates laws for men and created the earth six days. Wouldn't you think it stupid for someone to read Lord of the Rings as nonfiction? Well the same goes for the bible or any other religious book.

Question, who taught you that the bible was fiction?