Political cartoons

[Nikolai]

The Persians and Shia have a more liberal record on this issue than the Sunni but I'm still be rather skeptical that such depictions are commonplace. Given that the penalty for apostacy is death I would think most people would be somewhat reluctant to buy or sell such depictions. Have you seen this personally?

Depictions of Muhammed is not apostasy. The hatred towards depictions of him are a part of modern radical Islam, traditional Islam and especially, but not exclusively, Shia Islam, is more lenient. As for seeing it personally, I have not been in said markets, but I have seen examples and been taught about the subject in university. Those professors have been there.

[BlackCat]

I didn't know about the fake ones but that sounds like par for the course, I guess.

This was one of them

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8959820

[Ben Kenobi]

People of the Book, ie Jews and Christians are allowed to live as long as they are okay with oppression from the Muslims. Dhimmitude is the term. After WW2, this has changed somewhat in parts of radical Islam.

If they refuse to submit and pay the Jizya, then they can be killed. IMO, not much of a distinction.

[Nikolai]

It's a big difference. At least we get to choose. But I'm not saying it's a good thing, for heaven's sake.

[Ben Kenobi]

A choice between submission or death?

Can I quote Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death?"

[Dinner]

All this talk about Shias got me thinking about a recent thread about Persia over at CFC. It seems at least Iranian Shias are still some what influenced by their pre-Islamic cultural values. Here's an interesting letter from the Persian king just before his country was invaded and conquered by Muslims.

In the name of Ahura Mazda, creator of Life & Wisdom. You in your letter wrote that you want to direct us towards your God, Allah O Akbar, without having the true knowledge of who we are & what do we worship!

It is amazing that you occupy the position of Khalifat (Ruler) of Tazis, yet your knowledge is the same as a lowly Tazi rambler, roaming in deserts of Tazistan (Arabia), & same as a desert tribal man!

"Little Man", you offer me to worship a united & single God without knowing that it has been thousands of years that Persians worship the mono God & they pray to him Five Times a day! In this land of culture & art this has been the normal path of life for years. When we established the tradition of hospitality & good deeds in the world & we waved the flag of "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds" in our hands, you & your ancestors were roaming the deserts, eating Lizards for you had nothing else to feed yourselves & burying your innocent daughters alive (an old Arab tradition, cause they preferred male children to female)!

Tazi people have no value for God's creatures! You behead God's children, even the Prisoners of War, Rape Women, bury your daughters alive, attack the Caravans, mass murder, kidnap people's wives & steal their property! Your hearts are made of stone, we condemn all these Evil which you do. How can you teach us Godly Ways when you commit these actions?

You tell me to stop my Fire Worship! We, Persians see the Love of Creator & power of inventor in the light of Sun & warmth of Fire. Lights & Warmth of the Sun & Fire makes us see the light of truth & warmness our hearts to the creator & to one another.

It helps us to be kind to one another, it enlightens us & makes us to keep Mazda's Flame, alive in our hearts. Our lord is Ahura Mazda & it is strange that you people also, just discovered him & named him Allah O Akbar! But we are not the same as you, we are not in the same level as you. We help other human being, we spread love among humanity, we spread Good throughout the Earth, we have been spreading our culture but in respect for other cultures throughout the whole world for thousands of years, yet you in the name of Allah invade other men's land! You mass murder the people, create famine, fear & poverty for others, you create Evil in the name of Allah. who is responsible for all this catastrophe?

Is it Allah who commands you to murder, pillage & to destroy? Is it you the followers of Allah who do this in his name? Or is it both?

You have risen from heat of the deserts & burnt out infertile lands with no resources, you want to teach people the love of God by your military campaigns & the power of your Swords! You are Desert Savages, yet you want to teach urban people like us who lived in the cities for thousands of years, the love of God! We have thousands of years of culture behind us, a powerful tool indeed! Tell us? With all your military campaigns, barbarianism, murder & pillage in the name of Allah O Akbar, what have you taught to this Muslim Army? What knowledge have you taught the Muslim that you also insist on teaching it to non Muslim? What culture have you learned from your Allah, now that you want to force-teach it to others?

Alas, Oh Alas...... that today our Persian Armies of Ahura have been defeated from your recently Allah Worshiping Armies; Now, our people have to worship the same God, the same Five times a day, but forced by the sword to call him Allah & pray to him in Arabic, cause your Allah only understands Arabic! I suggest, you & your gang of bandits pack up & move back to your deserts where they are used to live. Take them back where they used to the burning heat of the sun, tribal life, eating Lizards & drinking Camel Milk. I forbid you to let your band of thieves loose in our fertile lands, civilized cities & our glorious nation. Don't turn these "beasts with hearts of stone" loose, to mass murder our people, kidnap our women & children, rape our wives & send our daughters to Mecca as slaves! Don't let them do these crimes in the name of Allah O Akbar, put a stop to your criminal behavior.

Aryans are forgiving, warm, hospitable, & decent people and everywhere they went, they have spread seeds of friendship, love, knowledge & truth; therefore, they shall not punish you & your people for your pirate ways & criminal acts. I beg you to remain with your Allah O Akbar in your deserts & do not move close to our civilized cities, for your believes are "Much Fearful" & your behavior is "Most Barbaric"!

signed,

Emperor Yazdgird III of Sasanid

[DaShi]

A choice between submission or death?

Can I quote Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death?"

[Ben Kenobi]

Well Oerdin, you're off ignore. Good post!

[Imran Siddiqui]

@ Persians decrying others for invasions of other people's lands.

[SpencerH]

They regard Christians, as infidels. For a religion that claims to love Christ, they sure hate Christians and Jews.

First off, they don't believe he was God. That's huge. It, for them, means that Christians are committing the ultimate sacrilege against the 'unity of God' in the Trinity. So yeah, they would attack him as a blasphemer for claiming to be God himself.

Infidel merely means "one without faith". Of course to followers of Islam christians are infidels. The opposite is also true, however. OTOH, christians and jews have special status within Islam in that they are not "non-believers". Thats why they were not persecuted during the various caliphates (although they had "second class rights"). In fact, jews lived better under Islamic rule than Christian rule.

No one here has said anything about Islam being a religion "that claims to love Christ". He is respected as a prophet of god. That respect is why some Islamic fundamentalists opposed the showing of The Passion of the Christ.

Of course they dont believe jesus was god, god is a trinity, or any other christian beliefs.

[Jon Miller]

I wonder if a religion related to Zoroastianism is the religion that Abraham's relatives followed.

JM

[SpencerH]

Depictions of Muhammed is not apostasy. The hatred towards depictions of him are a part of modern radical Islam, traditional Islam and especially, but not exclusively, Shia Islam, is more lenient. As for seeing it personally, I have not been in said markets, but I have seen examples and been taught about the subject in university. Those professors have been there.

Perhaps not true apostasy, but I defy you to find someone who bought a picture of Muhammed in a market today (especially in Iran despite its previous leniency). All it would take is a denounciation by a mullah who didnt like the idea. One might not die, but it would not be pleasant.

The hatred toward portraits and art in general is a part of the Hadith and it is no more "modern" than some christians opposition to wine and spirits.

[Ben Kenobi]

The opposite is also true, however

Yeah, except for those parts where Christians slaughter Muslims, you'd be accurate there. Muslims have more religious freedoms in the west, than they do in Muslim countries, heaven forbid you be a Shiite in Sunni lands.

[Ben Kenobi]

I wonder if a religion related to Zoroastianism is the religion that Abraham's relatives followed.

Abraham is far older than Zoroaster.

He's back about the middle bronze age, around 1650-1800 BC. The earliest evidence we have for Zoroaster puts him at about 600-700 BC, in the early Iron Age.

[Felch]

Felch is being overly broad in describing cultural conflicts.

True.

I use overly broad language because qualifiers tend to bog a post down. I think it's pretty clear that I'm referring to the militant *******s and not the innocents.