Thank you Bush

[Ben Kenobi]

The problem with you, Ben, is that you assume that you have the correct answer to everything,

If that were the case then I'd still be a protestant.

Obviously, I had to change and reconsider some of the things that I believed in order to convert to Catholicism in the first place. I don't have the correct answer on everything, but I believe that the Church does.

and that you are so certain about it that you deliberately twist facts to support whatever rickety "truths" you've come to, regardless of the truth.

I've considered them over time, and frankly, I find many of the core beliefs of protestantism lacking. You can call it 'twisting of facts', etc, but that's simply spin. I'd rather not get into that argument here, but I'd be more then willing to if it would help folks to understand why I converted.

You've done away with the reason and the free will that your deity has imbued you with, relying instead on a text you assume is, for all intents and purposes, immutable and unchanging instead of being very much alive.

This is a strange complaint.

1. I've said over and over again, scripture AND tradition. Neither of which is one document or text. Your complaint doesn't apply to me then, or me now. I was expecting something along the lines of you getting your marching orders from the pope, etc.

Yes, I believe scripture is unchanging, but tradition is not. That is why they balance one another. I've even been confronted with a change in the tradition of the Catholic Church that I find rather difficult to accept, but then since none of you really follow the Catholic church, you'd not be able to name the change or when it occurred.

Instead of having the actual integrity to then follow that book, you've done what all of the televangelists and "Christian" conservatives have done, picking and choosing passages you like, and ignoring the rest wholesale: somethings have to be seen through the lens of the era, while others are still valid?

All are valid. If your complaint is picking and choosing, name the passages that you feel I reject, and don't follow. Otherwise this is simply a broad stroke which isn't relevant. Which passages do you believe I interpret 'through the lens of the era'? I don't believe I've ever said anything to that effect. I despise the concept of 'context' wrt to the Bible, as it's contrary to the belief that the bible is timeless.

Even more egregiously, instead of actively questioning and seeking the truths behind your beliefs, you've chosen instead to rely on the sophistry that the charlatans in cloth like Ted Haggard, Pat Buchanan, and Jerry Falwell have used so effectively, sanctifying your hate and making a mockery of actual critical thought.

IOW, there can be no right-wing Catholics? I think your critique is about as weighty as a fluffy pillow.

I'm of the Scott Hahn wing of the Church. I think you belong to the Pelosi/Kennedy wing.

[Ben Kenobi]

Since your critique is that I don't want to discuss Ms. Schiavo, I'll focus on that part of your previous post only.

The culture of death may have existed before him, but he did nothing to advance the culture of life.

Nothing? He appointed Roberts and Alito, both of whom oppose Roe vs Wade.

He also passed the 'born alive' act, which bans hospitals from killing babies born after a failed abortion.

He passed the Unborn victims of violence act.

He cut off funding to USAid which funded abortions worldwide.

He cut off funding for embryonic stem cells, for the same reason, that we should not be conducting experiments on embryos period.

You call that nothing? Granted, it's not as far as I would want to go, but it's something, and much better then the alternative, Gore, or Kerry.

His un-Christian policies have done nothing for the poor;

Except by giving them an opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty.

his foreign policy has done nothing but glorify the culture of death here and abroad,

By protecting his citizens from terrorists who want nothing more then to kill everyone.

by cheapening the sacrifices of every soldier by boiling down their efforts into cheap slogans and cheaper ribbons, inciting anti-American sentiment to an extent where they--however mistakenly--think their only option is to destroy themselves.

By actually standing by the men and women who have served the country abroad? Have you even spoken to any of them? I have, in my travels. All of them are thankful that Bush stood beside them.

His disinterest in actually tackling that culture, his refusal to actually create a culture of life can be seen in his despicable choice to veto the S-CHIP expansion

SCHIP is not a pro-life bill. I expect to see coverage for abortion as part of the package of 'universal health care'.

his choice to instead refuse to help distribute condoms in Africa has led to an uptick in HIV infections;

Which is why Africa is divided into two parts, one that uses condoms and has AIDS, and another that eschews condoms but has a negligible HIV ratio.

Or are you claiming the folks in Egypt use condoms more then say the folks in South Africa?

What is a Catholic doing defending condoms? I mean really. Didn't you get the message that condoms are illicit for Catholics?

and his continuous avoidance of any issue that actively helps teenaged parents suggests to me that the culture of "life" he espouses only matters if you're virtually dead or as yet unborn.

What help are you after? Pitching condoms at them is not helpful in the slightest, if your goal is to help them avoid pregnancy.

[Ben Kenobi]

As for Ms. Schiavo, why are you blaming Bush for her death?

The blame falls solely on her husband who insisted that she should be killed over the desires of her parents who wanted to take care of her.

The vegetable comment wasn't an attempt to be funny, it was an attempt to flame your ass.

Anyone with an ounce of consideration for Ms. Schiavo would not be calling her a vegetable in order to dehumanise her.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I can hardly wait for Obama to get in the saddle. This is going to be entertaining.

Yup, Obama could turn out to be a failure.

But even if he is, it'll still be a contrast between the guy who took a prosperous, fiscally responsible country at peace and wrecked the joint (while shredding the Constitution, destroying the integrity of the Justice Department, and squandering America's moral authority abroad) and the guy who tried to fix the extraordinary mess he inherited.

It'll be a little like comparing the drunk who rammed his car into you and the ER intern who subsequently failed to save your life -- sucks that you died, but it's clear who's to blame.

[Q Classic]

To whom?
Me and Papa Ratzi believe modernity can suck it. Why on earth do you think it is even relevant what people believe today? It's not. The Church is ancient, and one of the core tenets is the universality of church doctrine (it's the same no matter where you go), and that it is both timeless and unchanging.

If in fact the church were to embrace modernity, it would sacrifice catholicity, because different places believe in different things.

Except, of course, the views of the Church have changed.

Many times. In keeping with the times.

[Ben Kenobi]

Except, of course, the views of the Church have changed.

Many times. In keeping with the times.

In church doctrine? When was the last time, and how did it change?

[Q Classic]

[QUOTE=Ben Kenobi;5514114]

IOW, there can be no right-wing Catholics?

Religion should inform people's decisions, but you and your ilk let politics inform your religion.

I'm of the Scott Hahn wing of the Church. I think you belong to the Pelosi/Kennedy wing.

I do not belong to the Church anymore. Again, because people like you and Sean Hannity mix faith and politics in odious fashions.

[Q Classic]

Except by giving them an opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty.

And yet, more people than ever are now requiring charity. Some gift of opportunity.

By protecting his citizens from terrorists who want nothing more then to kill everyone.

Which you aren't one of, as you've mentioned before. On the other hand, his tactics have very clearly been harmful to those who aren't his citizens and, oddly enough, aren't really of European extraction.

So does the culture of life only value Americans?

By actually standing by the men and women who have served the country abroad? Have you even spoken to any of them? I have, in my travels. All of them are thankful that Bush stood beside them.

So why didn't he and his administration do more in the early years to provide them the equipment they needed? Why have they repeatedly given the short shrift to the VA?

SCHIP is not a pro-life bill. I expect to see coverage for abortion as part of the package of 'universal health care'.

So, actually improving the lives of those still living is somehow not pro-life?

Which is why Africa is divided into two parts, one that uses condoms and has AIDS, and another that eschews condoms but has a negligible HIV ratio.

You're confusing causation with correlation.

http://www.unaids.org/epi/2005/doc/EPIupdate2005_html_en/epi05_05_en.htm

What is a Catholic doing defending condoms? I mean really. Didn't you get the message that condoms are illicit for Catholics?

I'm no longer Catholic.

What help are you after? Pitching condoms at them is not helpful in the slightest, if your goal is to help them avoid pregnancy.

Well, for one thing, social help. Like subsidised child care for them so they can, y'know. Keep going to school and possibly get the opportunity to lift themselves from poverty.

[Q Classic]

As for Ms. Schiavo, why are you blaming Bush for her death?

The blame falls solely on her husband who insisted that she should be killed over the desires of her parents who wanted to take care of her.

The vegetable comment wasn't an attempt to be funny, it was an attempt to flame your ass.

Anyone with an ounce of consideration for Ms. Schiavo would not be calling her a vegetable in order to dehumanise her.

I'm not blaming Bush for her death. I never did. I do, however, think she was already dead; the autopsy showed that she no longer had a viable brain.

I am faulting Bush and his party for using her as a cheap, disgusting way of scoring points.

As far as actual consideration for other humans, I don't think you're one to talk.

[Q Classic]

In church doctrine? When was the last time, and how did it change?

Vatican II. Meatless Fridays, for one. (Of course, you can argue those are more procedural changes...)

[Ben Kenobi]

Religion should inform people's decisions, but you and your ilk let politics inform your religion.

So Kerry, Kennedy, and Pelosi et al don't bother you?

I call bull. You would never call out a liberal for mixing politics and church together.

I do not belong to the Church anymore. Again, because people like you and Sean Hannity mix faith and politics in odious fashions.

I'm not responsible for your decision. You are the one who will have to deal with the consequences good and bad. That you would blame me, I find rather sad to be honest. I think that if you were honest you'd say the truth, that you would have made your decision anyways not because you love the church, but because you love the world more.

Your critiques are all laced with liberalism, even on issues where the church is very clear, liberal or not, are not acceptable. You embrace modernism at the expense of faith.

Maybe one day you'll see otherwise. I know I did not that long ago either. I've only been a Christian 8 years and it always puzzles me why someone would give up the opportunity that I never got, a lifetime in the faith.

[Q Classic]

So Kerry, Kennedy, and Pelosi et al don't bother you?

I call bull. You would never call out a liberal for mixing politics and church together.

Because, so far, liberals haven't mixed politics and the Church.

I'm not responsible for your decision. You are the one who will have to deal with the consequences good and bad. That you would blame me, I find rather sad to be honest. I think that if you were honest you'd say the truth, that you would have made your decision anyways not because you love the church, but because you love the world more.

Then let me amend my original statement: people like you are why I'm giving up on the Church.

Your critiques are all laced with liberalism, even on issues where the church is very clear, liberal or not, are not acceptable. You embrace modernism at the expense of faith.

Faith does not necessitate hewing to outdated beliefs.

Maybe one day you'll see otherwise. I know I did not that long ago either. I've only been a Christian 8 years and it always puzzles me why someone would give up the opportunity that I never got, a lifetime in the faith.

I've had 20 years in the faith, and while I can understand why someone would enter it, I'm mystified at their assumption that it's the answer for everyone else, too.

[Ben Kenobi]

Vatican II.

Ahh, ok. That's not surprising. It's the typical comment.

What exactly did Vatican II change? I find most people say 'Vatican II' to mean just about whatever they want to change in the church.

As for the meatless fridays, that's not really a change. It's been the practice at least since the middle ages.

[Ben Kenobi]

Because, so far, liberals haven't mixed politics and the Church.

Really? Wow.

I'm stunned, I don't know what to say. Kerry has been huge about it. Kennedy and the Cuomo's all explicitly said that politics trump faith.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mariocuomoreligiousbelief.htm

Then let me amend my original statement: people like you are why I'm giving up on the Church.

Are we? I don't think so. I think you made this decision long before.

Faith does not necessitate hewing to outdated beliefs.

Where are your dissents? Contraception is one. Where else do you feel the church is wrong?

I've had 20 years in the faith, and while I can understand why someone would enter it, I'm mystified at their assumption that it's the answer for everyone else, too.

Why would I join if I didn't feel it was the right choice for everyone else too? I believe the Catholic church is closest to the truth then anybody else. If I felt otherwise, I would not have felt compelled to join. I honestly don't see what is wrong with saying everyone ought to be Catholic, and that they would be better off being Catholic.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not blaming Bush for her death. I never did.

Ok, glad we have that straight, and you are repudiating your earlier statement.

I do, however, think she was already dead; the autopsy showed that she no longer had a viable brain.

Anyone who was prolife in that argument understood that she was still responsive. All the choicers parroted what you say here.

I am faulting Bush and his party for using her as a cheap, disgusting way of scoring points.

Ahh, ok. Now I see why you are so angry about it. Damn Bush for trying to save her life!



I'm just happy somebody cared about her and tried to save her life.

As far as actual consideration for other humans, I don't think you're one to talk.

Obviously because I'm a jackbooted, heartless nazi. Next?