Nationwide protest against Proposition 8 tomorrow.

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


The only time I have ever had my speech regulated is at the university, and somehow I doubt that is a haven for the right.

The right believes in natural law, and that the state can merely recognise rights, rather then granting them from whole cloth.

If in fact there are no natural rights, then it is perfectly legitimate for the state to grant things like speech licenses and liberty licenses.

I would agree that the state can't grant or create rights. But in addition to recognizing them, it can try to deny them. As can other organizations/groups. The right doesn't only try to implement itself through the government. Though I suppose that is irrelvant, given the context of the discussion is licenses.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Kidicious


That's a very good point.

Well thank you.

It seems to me its knee jerk to march on some government monument controled by white conservative industrialists and ***** like 13 yo fat girls denied a date with the school quarterback 'because its all their fault'.

Well. White guys had little to do with this. At least the straight conservative kind. Blacks and hispanics did this. Also, the real power in those government monuments isn't there yet and definately isn't conservatives. The gays need to find the target a little better. The target is a little to the left...

[Naked Gents Rut]

I would agree that the state can't grant or create rights.

Of course it can. States grant and create rights all the time.

[Wittlich]

Well stated Keith!

[Naked Gents Rut]

Keith

Get the latest news satire and funny videos at 236.com.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


Marriage encourages heterosexual couples to procreate and ensures the children grow up in a stable family environment.

Gay marriage can do a little of the latter (thanks to adoption) and much less of the former (thanks to artificial insemination), but it's clearly not as socially beneficial an institution as marriage.

We aren't limited to rights that benefit the state you fascist!

[Ben Kenobi]

You have the right to do something if that right is not taken away from you. In a free society rights have to be taken away for good reason. Your personal religious belief is not a good reason.

By this reckoning, civil society has taken away many rights from me.

I don't have the right to buy a hooker off the street. I don't have the right to break into a beemer and drive away with it. I don't have the right to beat the heck out of the neighbour kid who annoys me every day. I don't have the right to abuse narcotics. I don't have the right to host opera performances at 2am, I don't have the right to operate a pig farm. I don't have the right to own 17 dogs. I don't have the right to operate a semi. I don't have the right to fly my own plane. I don't have the right to build my own windmill and power my neighbours house. I don't have the right to subdivide. I don't have the right to build an addition to the house. I don't have the right to sublet. I don't have the right to parade nude down main street. I don't have the right to make moonshine. I don't have the right to broadcast XXX movies for a home showing. I don't have the right to drive a snowmobile on city streets. I don't have the right to leave 100 pounds of garbage in my bin. I don't have the right to launch model rockets. I don't have the right to build a wave pool. I don't have the right to open up my own hotdog stand. I don't have the right to build a third storey. I don't have the right to coin my own money. I don't have the right to charge tariffs for goods transported through my property. I don't have the right to lend money to people. I don't have the right to open up a daycare. I don't have the right to use a firearm. I don't have the right to open election polling stations. I don't have the right to sink a well. I don't have the right to open a petting zoo. I don't have the right to offer a lottery. I don't have the right to operate a gaming room.

As you can see there are many rights that have been taken away from me. Should they all be abolished?

[Naked Gents Rut]

We aren't limited to rights that benefit the state you fascist!

No, but if you want the state to create a new right for you, you should probably try to demonstrate how that right will benefit society rather than call everyone who doesn't see the need for the new right a bigot.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


By this reckoning, civil society has taken away many rights from me.

I don't have the right to buy a hooker off the street. I don't have the right to break into a beemer and drive away with it. I don't have the right to beat the heck out of the neighbour kid who annoys me every day. I don't have the right to abuse narcotics. I don't have the right to host opera performances at 2am, I don't have the right to operate a pig farm. I don't have the right to own 17 dogs. I don't have the right to operate a semi. I don't have the right to fly my own plane. I don't have the right to build my own windmill and power my neighbours house. I don't have the right to subdivide. I don't have the right to build an addition to the house. I don't have the right to sublet. I don't have the right to parade nude down main street. I don't have the right to make moonshine. I don't have the right to broadcast XXX movies for a home showing. I don't have the right to drive a snowmobile on city streets. I don't have the right to leave 100 pounds of garbage in my bin. I don't have the right to launch model rockets. I don't have the right to build a wave pool. I don't have the right to open up my own hotdog stand. I don't have the right to build a third storey. I don't have the right to coin my own money. I don't have the right to charge tariffs for goods transported through my property. I don't have the right to lend money to people. I don't have the right to open up a daycare. I don't have the right to use a firearm. I don't have the right to open election polling stations. I don't have the right to sink a well. I don't have the right to open a petting zoo. I don't have the right to offer a lottery. I don't have the right to operate a gaming room.

As you can see there are many rights that have been taken away from me. Should they all be abolished?

There are good non-religious reasons why you should not have the right to do some of those things.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


No, but if you want the state to create a new right for you, you should probably try to demonstrate how that right will benefit society rather than call everyone who doesn't see the need for the new right a bigot.

In a free society there would be no need for that.

[Ben Kenobi]

There are good non-religious reasons why you should not have the right to do some of those things.

Why not? I'm particularly miffed about the coining your own money thing.

[Naked Gents Rut]

A totally free society without any state apparatus determining what are rights and what aren't would be anarchy.

[Wittlich]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


Marriage encourages heterosexual couples to procreate and ensures the children grow up in a stable family environment.

With the over-population of the world today, you still need to bring up the tired old argument of procreation?!? There are plenty of orphans out there hopeing to find a good and stable home.

And speaking of "stable family environment" (your own words, not mine) - Do you know the stabiliy rate is for heterosexual marriages?!? If you forgot, please replay Kieth's comment to refresh your memory.

Gay marriage can do a little of the latter (thanks to adoption) and much less of the former (thanks to artificial insemination), but it's clearly not as socially beneficial an institution as marriage.

Says whom? (I really don't know what your point is).

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why not? I'm particularly miffed about the coining your own money thing.

Well in the US when it was legal to do that people used to end up with worthless paper.[

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut
A totally free society without any state apparatus determining what are rights and what aren't would be anarchy.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a state*. I'm saying that people shouldn't take each others rights away for religious and other frivolous reasons.

*in a class society