Being an Independent in the USA is like living in a Monarchy

[Agathon]

Originally posted by rah

Remember for every hick or redneck that votes we need at least one informed person to cancel out their vote. If the informed don't vote, the rednecks win.

Given that at least 95% of the population do not understand why we pay tax, the idiots win every time. It doesn't say much about your system of government when none of the voters really understand why we have it.

I'd rather spend the day smoking weed and enjoying a barbecue than wasting my time voting.

[Vesayen]

The two parties do not care about the opinions of their members, do you think anyone cares about the opinion or voice of third party voters?

As for informed v uninformed, it is a landslide, the uninformed voters outnumber the informed 100 to 1 or more.

You might have a more reasonable view to say "If you do not vote at all, you have no right to complain", because you can vote on the local level and be far, far more likely to have local change, however your presidential and senate votes may be worthless.

[Aeson]

I agree local elections impact people's lives. Which is why I don't vote. I'm not really part of the community. I hardly shop here, I don't work here (the work I do is online), I don't own land here, I don't have kids in school here or go to school here myself... I don't talk to anyone other than my family here. So it's "theirs", and I don't feel the need to screw it up for "them". It'll be what they want it to be locally.

I'm not one to force my ideology on people. I can live my life here pretty much free from local politics, and that's the best possible option for me IMO. (Perfect government would be one that doesn't even need to exist, right?)

And like I said, not much variation on candidates here locally anyways. (And in my district, State too.) Rural Utah... all candidates are M's, regardless of party.

(Now if my rights were determined locally, I'd of course have a stake in it.)

[rah]

It only take 15 minutes to vote, so I still get plenty of time in to smoke weed and enjoy the barbecue.

You use your disapproval of the system as an excuse to sit on your ass and not do anything about it.
(except maybe whine at an obscure gaming web site to show what a man you are)
Go out and so something about it. If you're not trying to fix the problem, you're part of it. At least the hippies of the 60 and 70 went out and protested. And guess what, it did impact policy.

[Asher]

rah still smokes weed

[Vesayen]

No. I vote in my local election and am politically active.

I did not vote for the president in 2004 because Bush was a corrupt douche and I did not like Kerry's domestic policy. I will not vote for a lesser evil. In 2000 I voted for Gore, I LIKE Gore.

I'll likely vote for Obama, but I am not certain yet.

You are telling me to go do something about it-there is nothing I CAN do about it, my voice is dilluted by the ignorant masses, making change impossible.

Protesting is mostly pointless now, the media ignores unless the protestors share the view of that media outlet and the politicians ignore it.

You are blaming the victims of a problem too immense for them to solve. This is, unfair.

[rah]

Not unfair at all. It has to start somewhere. Do you think the first hippies that protested the Viet Nam war didn't think that? How can a handful of us make a difference. That went ahead with it and changed the way the country thought.
How about the first black that stood up for their rights.
That problem was too immense for them to solve?

No it's not unfair. It has to start somewhere.

[Vesayen]

Just because it has to start somewhere does not mean it is my personal responsibility to change the world. I work to make the world a better place in other ways, ways which are far more effective than voting in a corrupt and encumbered system.

There was not a monopoly on the media during the civil rights era and during the vietnam war. Major cities had lots of newspapers with different owners, news did not come from 24 hour news networks who are devoted to entertainment, not news.

In fact, since you want to blame individuals for the actions of a majority, I blame the people of that era for allowing the media to become a huge monopoly.

[rah]

Excuses, just excuses. And when that doesn't work you blame someone else. It's sad.

One thing is for sure. If nobody tries, it will never happen.

[Vesayen]

These are not exscuses. It is not fair to hold an individual person subject to a masisve corrupt system responsible for the corruption of the system. I did not form the system and I certainly do not like it.

I really equate this to blaming oppressed people for being opressed. Saying that those who do not vote with a vote that does not matter, do not have a right to complain, seems the same as blaming Iraqi's because Hussein oppresed them.

[Aeson]

I don't smoke weed, that's stupid.

I live my life the way I want. That's my "vote" when it comes down to it. That you're arguing with me trying to tell me what to do, to vote for someone I don't support, is hypocritical.

As for changing the system, I don't have much chance of that. I do what I can to convince those I think may be convinced, or who will actually talk to me (or rather listen, as that's the hard part). I am not a vocal person, I have difficulty expressing my ideas that way, I stutter and lose words a lot, and so don't have much luck with discussing things with people in real life, and little to no chance of ever holding office myself (especially considering my health history), even if I were in a local where my ideas were more accepted.

I can write decently enough, and express my thoughts adequately in writing. I have contacted representatives before in writing and through petitions. And yes, I express myself here as well. You mock me for expressing myself here, mock my actual stances as well, like a true bastion of virtue promoting "your ideology" that everyone should express themselves.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by rah
One thing is for sure. If nobody tries, it will never happen.

That you equate not voting with not trying shows clearly how ignorant you are.

[Ben Kenobi]

Neither candidate will succesfully change abortion, yet you are voting based on that issue?

One promises to expand and entrench it and is opposed to the Born Alive Act.

Simple question for me. In the US you vote for McCain who agrees with you 100 percent. He might not be successful in doing away with it altogether, but his supreme court justices should.

Abortion is a non issue since neither canidate will affect change there, vote based on something else.

You affect change when you maintain the status quo.

You effect change when you reject it.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by rah
It only take 15 minutes to vote, so I still get plenty of time in to smoke weed and enjoy the barbecue.

Umm... munchies..

You use your disapproval of the system as an excuse to sit on your ass and not do anything about it.

No. I'm unusual in that I think that nothing can be done about it. I personally dislike a lot about it, but I don't think anything can be changed in the short term, or even perhaps in the long term. Besides, I tend to the Marxist, so historical forces will change things, if we last that long.

(except maybe whine at an obscure gaming web site to show what a man you are)

Who's whining? I find politics rather amusing, especially US politics, which appears to be like two homeless guys arguing over the remains of a bottle of Thunderbird that one of them has peed in.

I find it weird that you and others here think that your vote means something significant and can effect substantial change, despite all evidence to the contrary. The fact that voting rates have fallen is one of the few testaments to the rationality of the voting public, who have sussed out that they'll be getting more or less the same meal either way.

I guess if you care that much about whether you'll personally get 50 bucks more a week under one guy rather than the other, it is worth voting. But frankly, if you care about that, then you have bigger problems than deciding whom to vote for.

Go out and so something about it. If you're not trying to fix the problem, you're part of it.

Can't you see that these two are often not mutually exclusive? What if you have reason to believe that the problems cannot be fixed? I tend to be the sort of person who doesn't believe the Hallmark Channel view of political activism, and I think I'm right about that. Very often the people who are trying to fix the problems are the problem as well.

At least the hippies of the 60 and 70 went out and protested. And guess what, it did impact policy.

Yeah, Nixon got elected... twice. Great job there rah.

[rah]

I'm glad that you have contacted representatives.
It means you're doing something. And it means that you really think you can make a difference despite your claims to the contrary.
If this was the only place you expressed yourself than yes it's worthy of mockery.