Being an Independent in the USA is like living in a Monarchy

[Aeson]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
all you independent non voters suck ... go out there and vote for that third loser, and next election perhaps he will be seen as someone who has a chance... no vote for third party is a wasted vote especiually now with "teh internets" all you disenfranchised could regroup and vote for Ron Paul or whomever next... instead of a "relaxing day" out contributing to the future monarchy... have a relaxing day the following weekend

if only politicians in the "democratic" countries were short sighted

First we'd need a candidate who's not a loon... And in any case, "independent" doesn't mean, "arbitrary 3rd party candidate who somehow made it on the ballot".

I'm not voting for an African American just to have an African American president. I'm not voting for a woman just to have a woman president. I'm not voting for a 3rd party candidate just to have a 3rd party candidate president. (Strangely enough, all 3 could be achieved by voting green in this election.)

If I vote for someone it'll be because I support what they stand for. I've yet to run into such a candidate. (Maybe Ron Paul if he'd drop the gold standard and withdraw from the world part of his platform.)

EDIT: I'll just add that I think it's actually the people who vote without a real preference, just to vote, that end up making it more difficult to get out of this 2 party trap of a system. If everyone who voted for the "lesser of two evils" (ie. vote R so D doesn't win, or D so R doesn't win) didn't vote, maybe 3rd party candidates would actually have a chance.

Also if the electoral college was done away with, my vote might actually count. (Let's see... any guesses which way Utah is going? Yah, that's a really hard prediction to make...)

[Aeson]

Re: Re: Being an Independent in the USA is like living in a Monarchy

Originally posted by Zevico
Look---over there! It's a bird...no...it's a plane...no...it's the preferential voting system!
Linky.
http://www.fairvote.org/?page=200&ar...owarticle=3333

[rah]

People that don't vote, don't have the right to ***** about anything. If you can't spend 15 minutes voting, you're useless. If all the people that don't vote did, maybe something would change.

[Aeson]

Who should I vote for rah? D, R, or G? I don't agree with any of them and I'm to blame for not supporting someone I don't agree with?

[rah]

That's a cop out. Out of all the offices up for grabs you say there's not one person you can agree with?
Worse case, vote for the 3rd party candidate. If every apathetic or person that doesn't agree with either of the 2 party candidates voted 3 party, it would have a great impact eventually.

Your type of thinking is part of the problem.

That and people that vote only when it's a presidential election. They are just to lazy to get their head out of the ground and research the candidates and the issues.

I will admit that I don't put enough attention when it comes to the judges and usually rely on local editorial recommondations.

[Vesayen]

Rah, you are missing the bigger problem.

People not being active is a problem.

People being uninformed when they vote is a bigger problem.

A system of corruption and stagnation which is resistant to all change and only gives 2 viable canidates, is a far bigger problem.

Pretend for a moment you are an alien who knows everything you know about our constitution and the general functioning of our government, but not the specifics of any personages or political parties, you only know the framework. Now as an alien, who knows nothing of the specifics of our nation, does it seem “good” that there are 2 political parties who do not really represent the interests of their constituents, because a majority of their constituents will side with that party other than “the other guy” who is worse?

The entire situation, stinks. My state virtually always votes for one party and because of the electoral college and the fact we only have 2 choices, my vote is worthless. I am only given two real options and no option to change the system because no one who is ever in a position to do so, is willing to do so, because that system put them in that position to begin with and perpetuates their own power.

[rah]

Just because I didn't mention it doesn't mean I'm missing it.
Aeson is obviously not not informed. That's what makes it a bigger crime when he doesn't vote.

Blaming it on the system doesn't solve anything and is another cop out.

All it would take would be a third party candidate to get over 25% of the vote and things would get shaken up.

[Asher]

rah, there is no point of voting if you can't find a single candidate to like.

I abstained for years and Canada has somewhat righted itself politically because of it. It's all me and my abstaining.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by rah
That's a cop out. Out of all the offices up for grabs you say there's not one person you can agree with?

Honestly... not that I've been aware of. (State and Federal. Local I don't pay much attention to, as I'm not involved in any of the issues... no kids, don't own land, don't work locally... and so leave it to those who are involved and have something invested. I would highly doubt we get anything but D's and R's locally. And mostly just R's. It's not the sorta place with much variation, or many people.) State-wide we get D's and R's, Libertarian, and Constitution party candidates as well. (Though my district does not have a L this go around), and they basically stick to the same platforms, all of which I disagree with.

And it's not specific issues... it's a fundamental disagreement with the party system. I think an elected official should strive to represent all their constituency, but we get partisan hacks who just want to force their platform on the minority (or minorities). It's certainly possible I've missed an actual good candidate somewhere in there over the years, but I doubt it.

Worse case, vote for the 3rd party candidate.

No better than the "lesser of two evils" vote. It's just random noise.

Your type of thinking is part of the problem.

No, if everyone thought my way there'd be no problem. (And I'm not just saying that cause then 1 person could vote for all of us I mean people who would/would not vote for the reasons I would/would not. Not who agree with me on the issues.) Because people would only vote for candidates they actually support, and those with no clear preference wouldn't add random noise to the elections.

Your type of thinking is a part of the problem. That people must vote for someone, even if they don't agree with any of the choices. Just ensures a bunch of random noise and increases the difficulty for 3rd party and independent candidates to break through. (3rd party being elected isn't important in and of itself... they should break through or not based on qualifications rather than the initial by their name. Artificial barriers to that are problems.)

[Aeson]

Originally posted by rah
Just because I didn't mention it doesn't mean I'm missing it.
Aeson is obviously not not informed. That's what makes it a bigger crime when he doesn't vote.

Give me a candidate I can support. I'll vote.

I'll voice my opinion too. Which is actually a much bigger deal than voting.

[Tuberski]

I don't vote either.

I lived in Utah and Texas, I'm not Repug or Demo. There is no point in voting anyway.

Make every government official give up all personal fortunes Don't pay them.

Get rid of Lobbyists completely. Make the government work for the people not for themselves.

ACK!

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by rah
Just because I didn't mention it doesn't mean I'm missing it.
Aeson is obviously not not informed. That's what makes it a bigger crime when he doesn't vote.

Blaming it on the system doesn't solve anything and is another cop out.

All it would take would be a third party candidate to get over 25% of the vote and things would get shaken up.

The third party canidates suck this year.

McCain is a corrupt, chronic liar.

I suppose people can find reasons they hate Obama.

Blaming ME for not voting for a third party canidate is not fair. I need 20 million other people to magically conspire to vote for a good third party canidate also, or my vote is worthless. How am I supposed to get 20 million people to vote with me?

Blaming a corrupt system may not solve anything but is not a copout. The corrupt system is at fault. Would you blame Iraqis for not showing up to the mandatory vote for Hussein? He held elections, he just won them in a 100% victory every year and he was the only canidate. Our votes are counted but it is only marginally more democratic when I only have the choice to vote for 1 of 2 people I had no effect in picking(unless I live in New Hampshire), or voting for someone who will have no effect.


I've heard this view before as a mantra "If you do not vote you have no right to complain!" I've never understood the mantra, I am not trying to be disrespectful but I see no logical basis for it at all.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by rah
People that don't vote, don't have the right to ***** about anything.

Well Martha, that's a fallacious inference.

If it were true, then no-one under 18 would have the right to complain about anything. Similarly, there are many things that, for practical purposes, aren't up for change no matter who you vote for.

Anyway, if voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by rah

Blaming it on the system doesn't solve anything and is another cop out.

What if you're a political nihilist? The evidence certainly points that way.

[rah]

Hmm, I think a little differently here.
Local elections can be really important because the more local an election, the better chance for a 3rd party or independent candidate to win. At the local level there is a real choice. The more that win at this level, the more are qualified for the next election up. An independent mayor now has the chops to run for the state legislature. If you look at state governments you'll see independents and 3rd party candidates starting to show up. People are starting to believe that at that level, voting for someone not in the big 2 is not necessarily wasting their vote. THis is the type of mindset that can lead to it happening at the national level.

So if you hate all the candidates or think they're all the same, go ahead and vote for that 3rd party or independent candidate. That's a way to VOICE your opinion.

Remember for every hick or redneck that votes we need at least one informed person to cancel out their vote. If the informed don't vote, the rednecks win. Apathy favors the rednecks. (since they're usually on the dole so they have nothing better to do than sit around and ***** and vote the ignorant party. )

And before anyone snickers about which party that is, check out that redneck thread.