Being an Independent in the USA is like living in a Monarchy

[rah]

As apposed to Aggy who is a dirty community slacker.

Nothing wrong with helping the community.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by rah


It's like Lancer's building campaign. IT ACTUALLY accomplished something. But what was it, once or twice over the entire history of this site. That's not enough.

Well thanks Rah.

We also do other stuff not connected to the site. For instance we just shipped last week 7 boxes full of clothes, shoes for poor people (and the kids) and rubber boots for the field workers. Just shipping costs alone are $65/box but every 5th box is free. That was our 2nd shipment this year.

Is that enough? (I know, you meant the site)

You going to contribute next go round?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by rah
Gee aggy, you belittle other peoples effort why you sit on your ass and do nothing and try to claim the moral high ground. UNtil you actually do something you have no right to comment about others efforts.

You still haven't proven how this is so. As I pointed out in my first post, it is apparently false. Simply repeating it isn't much of an argument.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Riesstiu IV
Also, I think the electoral college would need to be eliminated completely if a third party wanted to have a chance at being elected.

Yeah. Every democracy adapts to new times and new circumstances. The electoral has barely changed (and only did so early on), and so is completely irrelevant nowadays.


Three things.

- It's rather surprising there seems to lack a general consensus amongst politicians around the anachronism that is the electoral college. I've heard no call for its abolition or adjustment yet. The founding fathers created a good state, but you can't live in the past forever y'know

- The rationale behind Vesayen and Aeson's reason for not voting is perfectly understandable, but voting for the third candidate you might like less, but more than the two big candidates is actually a good protester vote. If literally everyone started doing this, then politicians in general would see opportunities arise for new parties. There would be a broad basis on which politicians with different ideas could build. It's not voting for Ron Paul or whoever: it's voting for more democracy. If 20% of the nation (who are all disgruntled or disilliusioned people) voted for a third party, the mindset of the GOP and democrats would change. They would see potential, as would fresh new people with bright ideas. Then they would see that they should listen to the people instead of declaiming the same old rhetoric.

- From a foreign point of view, the two parties are almost interchangeble. The so called liberal democrats are not much different from the GOP as a whole. There are so many different people inside both parties that it would be better if they'd be split up. Give the christian fundies their party, give the social democrats their party, give the capitalist liars their party etc.

The fact that Bush and the Republicans can't even gather enough votes to save the 700 billion dollar bill to save the financial system is mind-blowing. Okay Bush is a lame duck, but fact is the parties can't keep their party members in line because they're too afraid of their constituency.

Which is good, but not to the extreme like this instance...

[Space05us]

For the record I am going to vote, I just don't know who for yet. I was really hoping that Ron Paul would win the Republican nomination, but he didn't and now it appears as though he won't even be running as an independent. I'll probably vote for Nader or Barr.

That still doesn't change the fact that the way we elect our President is not a true representation of who the people want running the country.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Space05us
For the record I am going to vote, I just don't know who for yet. I was really hoping that Ron Paul would win the Republican nomination, but he didn't and now it appears as though he won't even be running as an independent. I'll probably vote for Nader or Barr.

That still doesn't change the fact that the way we elect our President is not a true representation of who the people want running the country.

Don't vote. It's a horrible stain on your character if you do.

[rah]

Originally posted by Agathon


You still haven't proven how this is so. As I pointed out in my first post, it is apparently false. Simply repeating it isn't much of an argument.

Hmm your first post #28 just said you hadn't voted in years. In none of your posts do you mention actually doing anything except sitting on your ass since nothing will make a difference. Can you list a few things that you've actually done. You can make them up like you do everything else if you'd like.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by rah

Hmm your first post #28 just said you hadn't voted in years. In none of your posts do you mention actually doing anything except sitting on your ass since nothing will make a difference. Can you list a few things that you've actually done. You can make them up like you do everything else if you'd like.

You keep saying that people have no right to complain about the government if they don't vote. I find this to be an absurd comment, since I can easily think of many situations where someone doesn't vote and where they obviously have a right to complain. I mentioned some before.

I want you to give me a reason why I should believe this. Merely repeating that I should is not giving a reason.

That's the question I am asking you. Whether or not I vote or not, or even if I am so eager to vote that I commit fraud and vote dozens of times in each election does not make any difference to this question, and nor does whether or not I sit on my couch eating nothing but cheetos.

My own peculiar brand of cheery political nihilism doesn't really have much to do with the question at hand.

[rah]

Actually the only example you mentioned was those under 18, which has nothing to do with my point since they can't vote anyway. Or commiting fraud by voting multiple times.

All of you've done is spewed your typical BS making excuses that there's nothing you can do that you think will make a difference so you've given up and prefer to just sit on our ass and make fun of everyone else.

But I guess it's good that you sit it out on the sidelines with all the other losers since any contributions you might make would probably be more harmfull then helpful. Call it what ever you want to justify it to yourself. Everyone else can see it for what it is.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Americans: Vote third party!


A bipartisan system is just step away from a one party system. Heck I bet the average USAian wouldn't notice any difference if the Dems and Repugs merged. Come to think of it nothing would change.

The US would need the following parties to work as a democracy:

A big Christian party
A conservative party (a new "republican" party)
A liberal party (new "democratic" party)
A Social Democratic party (a real left party)
A libertarian party
A Green party

The function of the first one is to keep nuts out of the mainstream conservative party. If you had one of these in the 70's the Republican party wouldn't have been hijacked by Christian fundamentalists. I think it would get about 20% of the vote.

The rest are self explanatory.

I've voted for third parties since I first was permitted to vote. Plan to again this year.

Originally posted by rah
God, the pessimism here is downright depressing.

It's almost a shame that people have to rely on web sites now.
In the old days we'd being doing this face to face. They were called bullsessions. When you did it face to face maybe our attention span was longer. If we all agreed that something was screwed up we actually tried to do something about it.
We'd get a group together, and go out and protest. Or we'd go out and collect funds for organizations we thought were doing the right thing. In most cases it didn't cause change but a few times it did.

*ahem* I do that on a daily basis.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by rah
Actually the only example you mentioned was those under 18, which has nothing to do with my point since they can't vote anyway. Or commiting fraud by voting multiple times.

There are plenty of others. In general, if one's vote won't make any difference to the outcome of the election and then the elected government does bad things, then you have a perfect right to complain whether or not you voted because you aren't responsible for the outcome either way since you could not have affected it. Or there are cases where you do not vote and the government starts committing hereto unforeseen (by you and those who voted) and grotesque human rights violations.

In general, you have to make some sort of case for voting being efficacious at achieving a desired outcome. For many people it is, but for many others it is not. In fact, as someone said, it is like being told you must buy a car now, and that the only choice you have is between a Ford and a Chevy. That is the situation, and there is no hope of realistic hope of persuading people to offer more options.

Essentially the case is this: if everyone else in your community votes to **** you over, and they have the numbers, but they gracefully allow you a vote (knowing that it will have no effect on the outcome), I don't see how you can be unjustified in complaining about the outcome whether you vote or not.

All of you've done is spewed your typical BS making excuses that there's nothing you can do that you think will make a difference so you've given up and prefer to just sit on our ass and make fun of everyone else.

Nice typo. I wouldn't sit on your and Ming's collective ass for all the tea in China. Although, it may well make a suitable platform for a public lecture.

What is at issue is a fact, not a value. Whether or not voting or political organizing can effect any real political change at this precise point in history is not a matter of ethics, but a putative matter of fact.

I don't necessarily sit on my ass. I have better things to do than waste time on impotent political activities. It's about as meaningful and practical as attending a church, which is to say absolutely useless and a waste of a good Sunday.

But I guess it's good that you sit it out on the sidelines with all the other losers since any contributions you might make would probably be more harmfull then helpful. Call it what ever you want to justify it to yourself. Everyone else can see it for what it is.

So I'm a loser because I don't want to play your little games. Given that you've spent the last 40 or so years voting and have received pretty crap government in return, I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

[rah]

Blah blah blah blah.
Look to Ozzy, he does something about it, and while he may not be making as much of a difference as he'd like, he's out there doing something. You're not. Make all the noise you want. It's useless noise that has no purpose. People can make a difference, but they have to at least make an effort. You are what you are.

Voting is just one thing you can do, but it the easiest and there's really no excuse not to. But you seem to be real good with excuses.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by rah
Blah blah blah blah.
Look to Ozzy, he does something about it, and while he may not be making as much of a difference as he'd like, he's out there doing something.

He runs a front group for paedophiles. Excellent example.

You're not. Make all the noise you want. It's useless noise that has no purpose.

How so? The degeneracy of our society is of immense theoretical and comedic interest. Not every purpose is practical or productive. I'd claim that most political speech and activity is white noise.

People can make a difference, but they have to at least make an effort.

I wonder if you understand what has happened to politics in the last couple of decades. It's true that effort is almost always necessary if worthwhile change is to be effected, but it does not follow that effort is sufficient or anywhere near it to effect worthwhile change. And to top it all of the people who are in charge do not know what they are doing.

We have faith-based politics and the vast majority of voters have demonstrated that they are happy with that. There is no conspiracy – everything is exactly as it appears. That is what is so unfortunate. It's no accident that our species has a recurrent myth of a messiah who will save us from our own stupidity, but of course he never turns up.

You are what you are.

Is it tautology week?

Voting is just one thing you can do, but it the easiest and there's really no excuse not to. But you seem to be real good with excuses.

Why should I ruin my day when there are no candidates I want to vote for, and I am indifferent as to whichever of the two who have a chance of winning will win?

[rah]

blah blah blah blah blah.
More excuses. Just admit that you've given up on society and hide in your dark little cave spewing insults and hatred.

While I don't always agree with Ozzy, at least he's making an effort to fight for what he believes. I respect him for that. While I was quite active when I was younger, he seems to be doing more.

[Asher]

The only upside to being politically active is you will never get an STD.