Why are you not a Christian

[BeBMan]

Well, the middle ages was rather the result of a combination of both Roman and Germanic culture, most visible of course in the fact that Christianity became even more important, while old German religions died out sooner or later.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Asher
And places that indoctrinate children into thinking gays are evil, sinful, "wrong", whatever will be a lot more hostile to gays than those without such preconceived notions.

While elements of doctrinal belief are unhelpful, children are quite capable of being intolerant of anyone different without prompting from a priest. Children need to be taught values of social decency in all spheres of equality, I expect.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


While elements of doctrinal belief are unhelpful, children are quite capable of being intolerant of anyone different without prompting from a priest.

Yes,
Children at a certain age (around age 5-15) seem to be very capable of it, not necessary limited to gays.
They´re often even better in it than adults

[Asher]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


While elements of doctrinal belief are unhelpful, children are quite capable of being intolerant of anyone different without prompting from a priest. Children need to be taught values of social decency in all spheres of equality, I expect.

Yes, but it's during adolescence and early adulthood that most children start growing up, socially. Religion provides a tool that people use to prevent growing up.

I don't think it's any coincidence homophobia is most rampant in the bible belt, and in Canada it's most rampant in the most religious parts of Alberta as well. People keep thinking it's some big coincidence, but how naive can you be?

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, but it's during adolescence and early adulthood that most children start growing up, socially. Religion provides a tool that people use to prevent growing up.

You are deviating from the script che. Shouldn't it be that religion is the opiate of the masses? It's a good quote really. I would say that religion fills an essential need for many people, but then of course, you would see the Party as the substitute without the superstition.

I don't think it's any coincidence homophobia is most rampant in the bible belt, and in Canada it's most rampant in the most religious parts of Alberta as well. People keep thinking it's some big coincidence, but how naive can you be?

So if we eliminated all forms of religion everything would be happy and light? Somehow I don't believe that. The question we should be asking is why do children have this distaste, when they've not been taught yet?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You are deviating from the script che.

Yes, my name is easily confused with che.

Shouldn't it be that religion is the opiate of the masses? It's a good quote really. I would say that religion fills an essential need for many people, but then of course, you would see the Party as the substitute without the superstition.

Yes, I'm such a hardcore commie.

So if we eliminated all forms of religion everything would be happy and light? Somehow I don't believe that.

Neither do I. Amazingly, no one has said this. Yet another strawman from Ben.

I think religion is one of many reasons people are against gay marriage. In the West, it's the #1 reason.

The question we should be asking is why do children have this distaste, when they've not been taught yet?

That's a fascinating question, and it's one best answered by child and social psychologists. I can see where you're going with this ("natural"), but I'll have you know that as children, boys don't like girls either, so it's not that children are perfect moral compasses that get corrupted with age...

I also disagree that "they haven't been taught yet". Unless you're talking about 2 year olds, and they don't care either way.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The question we should be asking is why do children have this distaste, when they've not been taught yet?

Perhaps narrow, tribal conformity and general prejudice against anyone who is in any way different served some purpose to our primative, ancient ancestors.

It certainly shouldn't be taken as some divine, natural justification for bigotry, inequality and oppression.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, my name is easily confused with che.

Yes, I'm such a hardcore commie.

Forgive me. I was reading that and that was my first impression. Saying that religion is a tool that folks use not to grow up, how is that different from what Communists say about religion? Not a whit.

Neither do I. Amazingly, no one has said this. Yet another strawman from Ben.

Then what's the issue here? If things are bad with or without religion, that's the point that the good Doc and Elok are making. Why would religion be the trait responsible for making people that way.

That's a fascinating question, and it's one best answered by child and social psychologists. I can see where you're going with this ("natural"), but I'll have you know that as children, boys don't like girls either, so it's not that children are perfect moral compasses that get corrupted with age...

I haven't suggested anything. However, if we see this in children before they have experience in religion, and irrespective of their religious experience, then it stands to reason that it isn't religion that is making people think this way.

I also disagree that "they haven't been taught yet". Unless you're talking about 2 year olds, and they don't care either way.

So when does religious indoctrination begin?

[Ben Kenobi]

Perhaps narrow, tribal conformity and general prejudice against anyone who is in any way different served some purpose to our primative, ancient ancestors.

It certainly shouldn't be taken as some divine, natural justification for bigotry, inequality and oppression.

No, but it destroys the thesis that these attitudes are caused by religion.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Forgive me. I was reading that and that was my first impression. Saying that religion is a tool that folks use not to grow up, how is that different from what Communists say about religion? Not a whit.

I don't see the relevance of communism to this discussion.

Then what's the issue here? If things are bad with or without religion, that's the point that the good Doc and Elok are making.

It's not good/bad, it's shades of grey. What an elementary argument...

Why would religion be the trait responsible for making people that way.

Because it's part of the belief system for many people?

You, yourself, oppose gay marriage. Try to tell me it has nothing to do with religion.

I haven't suggested anything. However, if we see this in children before they have experience in religion, and irrespective of their religious experience, then it stands to reason that it isn't religion that is making people think this way.

I don't think we see this in children before they are exposed to religion. Most children don't even understand what being gay is until much later, after they've not only been exposed to it through church, but through society as a whole --a society that is driven by "Christian" ideals.

So when does religious indoctrination begin?

As soon as the child becomes aware of the concept of society. As soon as the child is taken to church as well.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


No, but it destroys the thesis that these attitudes are caused by religion.

It in no way approaches doing that, in part because it's based on fundamentally flawed assumptions.

I never have encountered a homophobic child that has never heard of religion or was never exposed to a society whose norms were largely determined by Christianity. I think you'll find most children -- before they can comprehend more complex social ideas -- are welcoming of all people: race, gender, sexual orientation, whatever. It's when they get older and exposed to the ideas of their parents, their peers, and their culture that the social phobias form.

At least, that's how I understood it from the social and child development psychology courses I took.

If you know of any 1-2 year old children with homophobia, please do let me know. But to pretend "this destroys the thesis that these attitudes are caused by religion" is just stupid.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Asher
Yes, but it's during adolescence and early adulthood that most children start growing up, socially. Religion provides a tool that people use to prevent growing up.

I don't think it's any coincidence homophobia is most rampant in the bible belt, and in Canada it's most rampant in the most religious parts of Alberta as well. People keep thinking it's some big coincidence, but how naive can you be?

I don't think it's coincidence, rather that you have it backwards. People stream to a religion if it can justify their hatred of a group, or modify or invent a religion to support their prejudices. In modern times especially, people tend to choose belief systems based on whether those systems support what said people supported anyway. That's one of the most obvious fruits of the Protestant Reformation--thanks in part to sola scriptura, God can be made to say anything if you're clever about putting words in His mouth. Just look at Philosophizer. Don't assume that all, or even most, bigots are complete fools.

Hey, Firefox spellcheck objects to "sola" and "scriptura" but recognizes "Philosophizer" as a legitimate word. Snuh?

[Asher]

I don't think it's coincidence, rather that you have it backwards

I disagree. I don't think being born in Arkansas means you're more likely to be religious as an excuse to hate people.

I think the religious culture in such state breeds hate, not vice versa.

We agree to disagree, because you see what you want to see in your own faith. History has shown religion to be a tool of hate and violence, whether you want to admit it or not.

[Ben Kenobi]

You, yourself, oppose gay marriage. Try to tell me it has nothing to do with religion.

Opposition to gay marriage != hating gay people. Someone can disagree with you on a topic without hating you.

I don't think we see this in children before they are exposed to religion.

Kid's hardly religious and he's said it happens. So you'll have to take it up with him.

Most children don't even understand what being gay is until much later, after they've not only been exposed to it through church, but through society as a whole --a society that is driven by "Christian" ideals.

Yet the original distate is the question here, not what happens later. I would disagree with your assessment, my own experience growing up is that it's just the opposite, it's the Christians who were ridiculed and made fun of for being prudes, etc. I should know because I was one of those folks making fun of them.

As soon as the child becomes aware of the concept of society. As soon as the child is taken to church as well.

Ok. So just taking a child to church is 'religious indoctrination?' Interesting. I think it's important, as you no doubt would say that Christian parents teach their children Christian values. I sincerely doubt that you would say that buddhist parents shouldn't teach their children buddhist values.

[Ben Kenobi]

It in no way approaches doing that, in part because it's based on fundamentally flawed assumptions.

Like what?

Well one of the assumptions is that human beings, no matter what are born sinful.

I think you'll find most children -- before they can comprehend more complex social ideas -- are welcoming of all people: race, gender, sexual orientation, whatever.

So you believe that children are inherently good, and it's just society that corrupts them?

So what's your solution Asher? There are about three schools. I'm curious which one you fall under.