Why are you not a Christian

[Elok]

Originally posted by Asher
I don't think we see this in children before they are exposed to religion. Most children don't even understand what being gay is until much later, after they've not only been exposed to it through church, but through society as a whole --a society that is driven by "Christian" ideals.

I'm not supporting Ben's arguments here, but you DO realize there's a confounding variable there, right? I.e., that small children have no conception of sex, or at least not a very realistic one? I remember I first learned what heterosexual sex is (in purely physical terms) in second grade or later, I don't recall exactly when. Up till then I had a vague notion of it as some strange thing adults did that involved being naked and kissing, just like "gay" meant lame, uncool. And of course it's hard to hate something you aren't even aware exists...the change in attitude could be due to societal teachings, but it could also be just as easily due to growing awareness of the subject's existence.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Perfection
In what manner? Just saying it as an insulting term?

No, they know what gay is, at least they know what queer is. They know when someone is different and they see this as something inferior. They make fun of it. Anything different is something that kids can make fun of.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Asher
We agree to disagree, because you see what you want to see in your own faith. History has shown religion to be a tool of hate and violence, whether you want to admit it or not.

No, history has shown that people are hateful, violent creatures, and that they will use any ideology that comes to hand to justify their hatred. Religion was more popular than science for most of human history, so it got used more. Nowadays we alter science or politics, not scripture. Please quit being condescending, it's quite rude and I've done nothing to warrant it (well, not in this thread, at least).

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Asher
If you know of any 1-2 year old children with homophobia, please do let me know. But to pretend "this destroys the thesis that these attitudes are caused by religion" is just stupid.

Well, my son said he didn't like one of my friends because he was black when he was 5 years old. I have no idea where he would have gotten that idea, but generally kids get ideas like that from somewhere. Church is one place they could get it, but my thought is that they get most of their ideas from other kids.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Opposition to gay marriage != hating gay people. Someone can disagree with you on a topic without hating you.

Think back to the original topic under discussion. It was about how Christianity is one of the main reasons oppose gay marriage. You're a textbook case of why this is so.

Kid's hardly religious and he's said it happens. So you'll have to take it up with him.

Kid's kid has been exposed to Christianity and Christian ideals and his peers. I don't think you guys comprehend how pervasive Christianity is in the US and Canada, even if someone isn't explicitly religious the beliefs inherent to Christianity spreads across all of society. This is why gays are not given equal rights under law in the US still.

Yet the original distate is the question here

Just where do you get the idea that infants have "original distaste" towards gays?

not what happens later. I would disagree with your assessment, my own experience growing up is that it's just the opposite, it's the Christians who were ridiculed and made fun of for being prudes, etc. I should know because I was one of those folks making fun of them.

Then that simply shows your flaws as an individual. You act like this is surprising, but your character is obvious to me behind your Born Again veneer.

Ok. So just taking a child to church is 'religious indoctrination?' Interesting.

Uh. Yeah? What do you think the whole purpose of churches is? Sermons? Sunday school?

I think it's important, as you no doubt would say that Christian parents teach their children Christian values. I sincerely doubt that you would say that buddhist parents shouldn't teach their children buddhist values.

No idea WTF you're talking about, but assuredly it's unrelated to my assertion that Christians are the main reasons gays are denied equal rights in the US and Canada. In fact, if anything it kind of supports me.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Elok


No, history has shown that people are hateful, violent creatures, and that they will use any ideology that comes to hand to justify their hatred. Religion was more popular than science for most of human history, so it got used more. Nowadays we alter science or politics, not scripture. Please quit being condescending, it's quite rude and I've done nothing to warrant it (well, not in this thread, at least).

I hope that you are aware of the fact that it was christianity that introduced religious hatred ?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Like what?

Well one of the assumptions is that human beings, no matter what are born sinful.

Precisely. I don't think a 1 year old child is inherently sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. These behaviours are taught or acquired.

So you believe that children are inherently good, and it's just society that corrupts them?

So what's your solution Asher? There are about three schools. I'm curious which one you fall under.

What "solution"? You think children being born with "blank slates" is a bad thing?

Teach your children love. If Christianity actually did this on a broad scale, blacks wouldn't have been 2nd class citizens for so many years, and gays would have equal rights now.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok


I'm not supporting Ben's arguments here, but you DO realize there's a confounding variable there, right? I.e., that small children have no conception of sex, or at least not a very realistic one? I remember I first learned what heterosexual sex is (in purely physical terms) in second grade or later, I don't recall exactly when. Up till then I had a vague notion of it as some strange thing adults did that involved being naked and kissing, just like "gay" meant lame, uncool. And of course it's hard to hate something you aren't even aware exists...the change in attitude could be due to societal teachings, but it could also be just as easily due to growing awareness of the subject's existence.

Do you think it's a coincidence that in terms of most Christians beliefs, being gay is "lame and uncool" and in a Christian society, the word "gay" is synonymous with "lame and uncool"?

This isn't a confounding variable, it's a factor of Christian beliefs in a society contributing to homophobia and lack of equal rights for gays in general.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok


No, history has shown that people are hateful, violent creatures, and that they will use any ideology that comes to hand to justify their hatred. Religion was more popular than science for most of human history, so it got used more. Nowadays we alter science or politics, not scripture. Please quit being condescending, it's quite rude and I've done nothing to warrant it (well, not in this thread, at least).

I think someone trying to absolve Christianity as a reason for hate, war, and violence given the history we all know is quite worthy of being condescending to.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Well, my son said he didn't like one of my friends because he was black when he was 5 years old. I have no idea where he would have gotten that idea, but generally kids get ideas like that from somewhere. Church is one place they could get it, but my thought is that they get most of their ideas from other kids.

Where do you live, Kid? What state?

I think your society is ****ed up if its children are inherently racist.

My best friends when I was in elementary school and pre-school were Chinese and of Indian descent. I didn't even have a concept of racism until I read about it in my social studies class and saw it on TV.

I agree that from their PEERS (this is "other children") is one way people get their ideas. I already said this explicitly. And, here's a newsflash, in the US and Canada, many of their peers are religious or have their ideals formed from Christian norms.

[Elok]

Originally posted by BlackCat
I hope that you are aware of the fact that it was christianity that introduced religious hatred ?

??? Uh, no. Just off the top of my head, the "heretic Pharaoh" Akhenaton predated Christ by a considerable margin. And ancient Greek amphictionies could and did declare Holy War (I read about it while doing research for an aborted Civ2 scenario).

Also, even if Xianity did so, it's completely irrelevant to this thread.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Asher
My best friends when I was in elementary school and pre-school were Chinese and of Indian descent. I didn't even have a concept of racism until I read about it in my social studies class and saw it on TV.

Whereas my mother's best friend as a child was black and she couldn't understand why her immensely racist parents wouldn't let her go over to her house. I guess they just didn't know how to indoctrinate kids back in 1950s Pennsylvania or she would have called her a darkie.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok


Whereas my mother's best friend as a child was black and she couldn't understand why her immensely racist parents wouldn't let her go over to her house. I guess they just didn't know how to indoctrinate kids back in 1950s Pennsylvania or she would have called her a darkie.

That's fantastic. I suppose she's all for equal gay rights to marriage as well. If so, good on her, but that's irrelevant.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Elok


??? Uh, no. Just off the top of my head, the "heretic Pharaoh" Akhenaton predated Christ by a considerable margin. And ancient Greek amphictionies could and did declare Holy War (I read about it while doing research for an aborted Civ2 scenario).

Also, even if Xianity did so, it's completely irrelevant to this thread.

Nah, I maybe exaggerated a bit

Though, I think that it's reasonable to say that christianity institutionalized the concept.

About relevance according to OP, I guess that I'm just as much OT as you were with your posting

Edit : While I'm quite aware of the egyptian mess, wich I see more like a civil war, than a hatred against what people outside egypt belived, I really can't find anything about greeks going to holy war before christianity. Can you provide a link ?

[Ben Kenobi]

Precisely. I don't think a 1 year old child is inherently sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. These behaviours are taught or acquired.

I said sinful, not either of these, because it's a broader term. You will hurt others for your own gain at that age. Surprised you've never had to look after a younger brother or something Asher. Kids can be really vicious.

So what's your solution Asher? There are about three schools. I'm curious which one you fall under.

What "solution"? You think children being born with "blank slates" is a bad thing?

To society corrupting the pure state of children. How can things improve?

Teach your children love. If Christianity actually did this on a broad scale, blacks wouldn't have been 2nd class citizens for so many years, and gays would have equal rights now.

So loving someone means you don't correct them when they do something wrong? That's not a Christian belief. Christianity says "accept hardship as discipline", but I don't suspect that's a teaching valued in this modern age.