Why are you not a Christian

[Asher]

I am not up for hearing ill-conceived excuses and more ridiculous interpretations/translations.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Asher has moved on now to his obsession with MS.

He believes in it

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Asher

They tell it like it is, Kid.

1) Religious leaders oppose gay marriage

Show me one such quote from Rt Rev Rowan Williams or Rt Rev Katherine Schorts.

2) Religious text oppose gay marriage

You and I both know you're not up to debating Christian scripture. There are laws from the Old Testament from which Christians were explicitly liberated by Paul. That would be Leviticus. There are parts of the New Testament which are habitually misinterpreted, that would be the letters to the Romans, which is a plea for Church unity not a diatribe against gays. There are parts of the New Testament which have been deliberately altered to include the prohibition of homosexuality. That would be Corinthians, which is actually about incest. The original text made no mention whatsoever of gay sex. Then there is Timothy. Big deal, Timothy.

3) Statistically, people who identify as religious tend to oppose gay marriage.

Statistically in the US atheists are so few in number that they may be considered self selected. Statistically world-wide atheists don't seem to be any more tolerant of gays than are religious people.

4) Statistically, people who oppose gay marriage give religion as their #1 reason to oppose it

If their understanding of scripture is flawed then it doesn't matter whether they give religion as their reason. They're simply projecting their own prejudices onto their religion. I can find quotes from Mao's little red book which would seem to condem homosexuals as ant-social (stuff about pleasure seeking). That doesn't mean that Mao meant to order the persecution of gays, but a Communist leader could use such quotes as a basis for doing so.

So, given 4 very convincing pointers here, what do you counter that with? The fact that there are some religious people who do support gay marriage?

Well, duh. Do you honestly think you're going to make me break down and admit that I'm a closet Roman Catholic or a card carrying Southern Baptist?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Asher
The only grounds Kid has found is "but no people are anti-gay cause of Christianity, they were already". Which is a stunning argument.

Why are elementary school kids anti-gay? Religion? I don't think so.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by BeBro


He believes in it

Religiously.

[Elok]

Asher, do you honestly think most of the fundies who hate you would be just fine with gays if they had never seen or heard of the bible? Conversely, do you think someone who had no problem with gays, interacted with gays and lesbians every day, would start to fear and hate you after reading Leviticus? I don't believe either.

[Asher]

I think you underestimate the power of indoctrination. And places that indoctrinate children into thinking gays are evil, sinful, "wrong", whatever will be a lot more hostile to gays than those without such preconceived notions.

It's no surprise that the most homophobia in the United States is in the "Bible Belt".

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Asher
I think you underestimate the power of indoctrination. And places that indoctrinate children into thinking gays are evil, sinful, "wrong", whatever will be a lot more hostile to gays than those without such preconceived notions.

It's no surprise that the most homophobia in the United States is in the "Bible Belt".

You're explaining the process of socialization. Christianity is not inherent to that process.

[Elok]

Yeah. And there really isn't enough unambiguously anti-gay stuff in the bible or church tradition to justify the level of obsession most of them take it to. It's not religious so much as an ingrained part of their culture. Methinks that, were they irreligious, they would form social clubs to teach their children being gay is wrong because it spreads cooties or something. It's just that Jesus is a much more attractive reason than "plain, naturally occurring xenophobia, bolstered and empowered by an approving social environment."

Which is not to say Xianity is pro-gay (historically it has always been opposed to homosexuality), but it doesn't "make you" hate gays.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Elok
Which is not to say Xianity is pro-gay (historically it has always been opposed to homosexuality),

I dunno about that: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/1979boswell.html

[Perfection]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Why are elementary school kids anti-gay? Religion? I don't think so.

Elementary school kids are anti-gay?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Perfection
Elementary school kids are anti-gay?

Yep, I have one. He's not particularly anit-gay, but the rest of them seem to be.

[Perfection]

In what manner? Just saying it as an insulting term?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Perfection
Elementary school kids are anti-gay?

They sure as heck were when I was young, only back then gays were queers.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I dunno about that: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/1979boswell.html

That's a very interesting article, but it doesn't really explain very well the change in attitudes during the middle ages. I wonder if the replacement of Roman culture by Germanic culture in Western Europe might have been a factor.