10 Questions Intelligent Christians Must Answer

[Elok]

Originally posted by Bosh

Perhaps I am trolling a bit, but this is supposed to be THE Book some ultimate font of wisdom and then it goes on and on with obsessions over dick size and infantile revenge fantasies, which makes it hard to take seriously.

Maybe you can make it make sense, I'm willing to listen you're the only person who's ever explained faith in a way that made any sense at all to me...

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I'm honestly not sure what the problem is here. If those were in the Gospel or part of Mosaic law, I could understand ("and thou shalt not take a man unto thee unless his member be like unto that of an ass, and his emission likewise equal to that of any beast that walketh on four feet"), but the first two parts are descriptive, not prescriptive. And the last is an expression of the misery and rage of the exiled Israelites.

The bible is many things put together: history book, hymnal, book of law and more. It's "from God" in the sense that it is our canon, but I at least don't think ol' I AM dictated it word-for-word to Moses or Samuel, reminding him to "be sure to include the bit about donkey penis, that's very important!" It's a collection of various records from the past used as the foundation of the faith, compiled as a sort of anthology. None of the things in it were originally written with the anticipation that they would be printed and given to hotels by the Gideons milennia in the future. Naturally, it contains a great variety of information. Also, most of the stuff in it was passed down by an oral tradition before being written. If you read an ancient epic like the Tain or Iliad, you find a similar tangle of ideas resulting from the conflation of many different traditions.

I imagine it's very different for the hardcore protestants, "presuppositionalists" I think they're called, who think of it as a totally monolithic work and believe everything true IRL is true only because the bible mentions it in some obscure way. But I don't believe such rubbish.

[Jon Miller]

I am still waiting (Because I don't want to do it myself) for LOTM or Elok or someone else to point out that the Bible is a history of Man's relationship with God. As such, it is about Man as well. Many parts of the Bible are showing Man's response to God, and God's response to Man. And yes, Man is about infantile stuff.

For instance, just because the Bible contains a story of Herod killing male babies to try to kill Jesus, doesn't mean we should emulate Herod. The only person that Christians are suppose to emulate is Jesus... I am not aware of anyone Jews are suppose to emulate... even Moses made mistakes. (I think Jews are suppose to learn from those though?)

Looking to the Bible, and JudeoChristian religions, as just a font of Wisdom is just as lacking as looking to them as just an explanation of why things work the way they do. Both are incomplete... and can be answered elsewhere (Bhuddism or Science for example).

Jon Miller

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I am still waiting (Because I don't want to do it myself) for LOTM or Elok or someone else to point out that the Bible is a history of Man's relationship with God. As such, it is about Man as well. Many parts of the Bible are showing Man's response to God, and God's response to Man. And yes, Man is about infantile stuff.

For instance, just because the Bible contains a story of Herod killing male babies to try to kill Jesus, doesn't mean we should emulate Herod. The only person that Christians are suppose to emulate is Jesus... I am not aware of anyone Jews are suppose to emulate... even Moses made mistakes. (I think Jews are suppose to learn from those though?)

Looking to the Bible, and JudeoChristian religions, as just a font of Wisdom is just as lacking as looking to them as just an explanation of why things work the way they do. Both are incomplete... and can be answered elsewhere (Bhuddism or Science for example).

Jon Miller

On bible as human-divine relationship. Yup, I dont want to do it either. Its so basic to Judaism, so important, I dont want to try to do it in a few lines. You did it well enough.

Whom are we supposed to emulate? We're supposed to take life lessons from many heros, the patriarchs and matriarchs, Moses, the prophets, even the kings sometimes, and rabbis and mystics and others. But none of them are perfect - for a specific guide to life we are to look to the Halacha. For a more general, not legal view, we look to the rabbinic stories and bibilical commentaries, the book on ethics called Pirkei Avot, and other later books on ethics and life.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Spec




Lightning strike!! Wham!

Spec.

I don't see how this quote tries to explain how God creates lightning. At most it says that God uses lightning, but it doesn't even say that. I just says that God's anger will come from 'above' which is obviously a figure of speech.

Really, you don't have to believe in God or christianity, but why are you even that stubborn to not accept the smallest things. Christianity (And Judaism) can be not about explaining the unexplainable, and still be unacceptable to you. It's not like if you admit the smallest thing that you are suddenly a christian or something.

And if god is so understanding and kind, he should not condemn non-believers to burn in hell for eternity since he never provided proof of his existence...

Hell is the place where God is absent.
If you don't want to be with God, you can be without him.
And that's most obviously not a pretty place, and that's why it's being described with all those 'evil' figures of speech.

I'm not a hard-headed bastard that is against faith. All I ask is for proof. That should not be so hard to provide considering his ''power''...

If I may give you a serious suggestion, start with looking at those things that you verify.

There are two ways to question christianity, through the miracles and the supernatural, and through the close-to-your heart things.

To me Genesis 3 is a key chapter there.
The Bible teaches me (through the story of the garden of Eden and the tree and the snake) that mankind's fall is because of it's desire to be (a) god, to deside over good and evil themselves.

I believe that that's the key problem of the world, everybody wants to lead their own life, everybody wants to be judged only by themselves over good and evil. That's why we say stuff like: "It's my life and I do what I want.". That's the cause of all evil, small evil and big evil. And the Bible also teaches us that mankind can't 'fix' themselves.

That's the first question you may ask yourself, is what the Bible says about myself true or not? Am I broken and beyond repair?
If this world would be perfect, would I fit on it, or would I step on toes, make the wrong remarks and hurt people, and hurt myself? Can I make myself be perfect?

That's close, it's in your heart, much easier to check then looking at what happend thousands or millions of years ago. And it's just between you and you.

To me the Bible is true because what it teaches me about myself and because it gives the only possible solution that's going to work for me.

[Robert]

Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence



Then why base your life on that?

Some people like it a parachute jump. They have faith that the parachute will stop them from smashing on the ground. They trust their life on it. Why? Because they heard others testimony that the parachute does stop you from dying.

You drive in a car and you trust, you have faith, the the brakes will work on the moment that you want to stop the car. Your life depends on it.

Having faith on Jesus means that you trust your life in his hands. The difference is perhaps that you don't have to take a paradrop and you don't have to get into the car. But we are all falling from a big stance towards the ground, since we will all die one day. Who do you trust? Do you trust yourself? I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that your trust will appear to be useless since you'll most probably die. You trust upon the mighty ones on earth? Ghandi? Washington? The Gaulle? Hannibal? Ceasar? I'm sorry, they're all dead.

That's what my faith is about, if I look at myself then I can only admit that I can't safe myself. I'm a fool and I hurt others, sometimes against my will, and in some wicked moments because I want to.
I have faith though, I trust, that Jesus will be able to fix me and lead me to the better life.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



My religion is to Christianity, as the Mac OS is to any Windows GUI.

We had the idea first, but they had the superior business model, which gives them unique advantages, despite an arguably inferior product. Though given the lower cost, arguably they are a better value proposition for first time adopters. So most users of late versions of our product are experienced users of the line. Though, as with Mac, there are some people who are able to grok the kewlness, and them we welcome.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
If atheists happen to be right, so what?
If I'm right, I'll miss you.

[FrostyBoy]

Some people here might be interested to know that the book Angels and Demons is currently being turned into a movie. I think the release is next year.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you base a road trip to NY on directions that someone gave you, you could end up in Cali, and you'd be screwed. But if you had looked at facts, like a road map, you'd be there already and not have wasted all your time believing in something that MIGHT be right and ending up no where near where you wanted to be.

And to me, life is a road trip I'd rather be sure about, well, as much as I possibly can...

If you want to know the road you get the information from the people who built the road.

Same is with life. God is our maker, therefore it makes sense to get a roadmap from him if you want to know the path to follow. You might disagree with sections of the bible, but honestly, I sincerely doubt that if you were to read it that you would not see everyday wisdom.

And for those who think that the bible should be 'high minded,' it's not. Truth has never been pretty or pristine, it is ugly and decrepit at times. You can't get the whole truth if you only see one side.

[SlowwHand]

That's what irritates me. People pulling a passage out of the entire context. It's unethical.

[Bosh]

Also, most of the stuff in it was passed down by an oral tradition before being written. If you read an ancient epic like the Tain or Iliad, you find a similar tangle of ideas resulting from the conflation of many different traditions.

Right, the OT is a lot like the Iliad. If people viewed the OT as "these are the stories that Jesus' people told, some true some biased some pure myth, before he came along and straightened things out" that would make some degree of sense. But it seems that Jesus took the OT a lot more seriously than that. If you consider the OT as an equivalent to the Iliad then a lot of the NT. If you think that there's a real difference between the OT and the Iliad, what is the difference exactly?

[SlowwHand]

Why do you discount the OT? It's the whole point of why and how Christ came to be. If it wasn't for people screwing up so bad during OT days, what would be the purpose in Christ being sent? It wouldn't have been necessary.
Lot more to it than what you say.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Why do you discount the OT? It's the whole point of why and how Christ came to be. If it wasn't for people screwing up so bad during OT days, what would be the purpose in Christ being sent? It wouldn't have been necessary.
Lot more to it than what you say.

I discount the OT since I don't see what the difference between it and, say, the Iliad is. And as far as the moral import of it goes all I've seen so far about that on this thread is CyberShy talking about how it justified the most cold hearted sort of political Machiavellianism.

[SlowwHand]

I don't particularly agree with CyberShy's assessment either. I don't think it can be compared to The Illiad, or anything else.
One thing I don't want to have happen, is someone taking lumps over something I did myself. I would feel mortified.
As a Christian, that's what happened.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Bosh
And as far as the moral import of it goes all I've seen so
far about that on this thread is CyberShy talking about how it justified the most cold hearted sort of political Machiavellianism.

Thats because you read it without benefit of midrash. The written torah isnt the end, its the beginning.