Questions about the Bible , I ask as I read

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So the claim that historically Christians and Jews have persecuted each other is not really accurate. Muslims and Jews, and athiests (Communists and Nazis and Jews) is much more so.

What?

Jews never persecuted Christians. The religion of Christianity was not really formalized till the biblical kingdom of Israel was already gone for generations...

As to the other half of that statement....

...

......

dot dot dot

while (1<2) cout >> "."

I forgive Christians for a millenium and a half of persecution, but Christians have treated Jews like crap for the last 1,500 years.

[Ben Kenobi]

When has a Jew been safe in Jerusalem since the 620's?

That is nearly 1400 years now of hostility between arabs and Jews in their holiest city.

It was the Christians, the British who gave you your land again, and the Americans who helped sustain Israel in the face of aggression for the last 50 years.

I don't apologise for the treatement of Jewish people by Christians in Europe, however when was the last time the Christians did anything to a Jew or the Jewish population as a whole?

Please tell me since you live in probably the most outspokenly Christian country that just happens to be the biggest ally of Jews around the world.

[Vesayen]

I said till recent history. I would say that the last 50 years or so.

Edit before I even posted: I meant till recent history in my other post.

Europe in varying degrees has been periodically slaughtering the Jews for 1500 years and when they were not slaughtering, opressing to varying degrees. Which christians who were opressing Jews and to what degree, changed with the times.

Christians did not give Israel back to the Jews, a secular European nation wrote a piece of paper, which the Arabs ignored. Jews gave Israel to the Jews when they won the war of independance in 48-I didn't see any British tanks there.

Like I said, it is in the past-even though much of Europe is seeing a resurgance in anti sematism. Its in the past, but it happened.... except France. #### France, they are not forgiven lol


America is proboably the safest nation for Jews to live in the world and one of the most Jew friendly. Even if they ignored the holocaust as they occured(no blood in Americas hands though, really-it was not their problem).

America does very well by the Jews. That does not change history though.

[Robert]

Az: I've never understood this, CyberShy. My knowledge of the teaching of jesus is admittedly rather poor, however, I don't think that there is any mention of ignoring the past rules and laws ( especially sensible since he was, after all, surrounded by other jews).

The laws were never given to the gentiles to begin with. Thus something should happen in the Bible that teaches us that the gentiles should obey to the laws.

Secondly, Jesus only teached to the Jews. Not to the gentiles. Besides that, Jesus teached during the old (at that moment the only) testament. He had not fulfilled the laws at that moment himself.

Besides that, the teachings about living as newborn christians come from Paul. (Romans 1-7, 6 and 7 specially, Galatians is important as well. Hebrews 8:10)
Paul teaches that the law came to show mankind it's sinfull. It's a mirror according to Paul, if you look into it you see your own sins and you should conclude: I'm not any good out of myself.

The law is the only way to get into the eternal life. Keep the law and live, says the old testament, quoted by Paul in Galatians. But we're not able to keep it, and can therefor not live. (Paul).
If you admit that, and admit that only Jesus was able to keep the law and have faith in him, then you can move with Jesus from the old life (that's ruled by the laws) into the eternal life. Jesus' death is your death. In the new life there is no law but the laws of Jesus. (Love all as yourself and God above all) (You can see that Jesus already teaches a new law in Matthew 6, the preach on the mountain. 'it is said that..... but I tell you.....' )

Paul says that the law reigns over us for as long as we live, but since we died with Jesus we do not life for the law anymore. The law has already plead us guilty. But Jesus took the penalty for that. Now the penalty has been paid the law lost it's function for us.

Be aware that that only counts if Jesus paid your penalty. If you raised in the new life. If someone pleads himself not guilty and claims that (s)he's living a good life, then he'll be 'putted on trial' and the law will be used to check if someone lived the right life.

Romans 7:1-6

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Here is a semi-Biblical question. Are the Jews still considered by Christians to be the 'chosen people'?

Yes, read Romans 11

And if they are, then shouldn't Christians be Jews? If they have been chosen by God, isn't that the place to be to get saved? Or is the logic that the Messiah has extended the 'chosen people' to go beyond just Jews?

Jesus is Jewish. christians get saved through the jews, by Jesus. Besides that most christians believe that the Jews will have a special task/position during the apocalypse.

Most important is that God uses /used the Jews for his plan for salvation of all mankind.

So why have Christians historically been intolerant of Jews?

Because christians are human and make mistakes and sin.

[Flip McWho]

Aye, one thing I've noticed is there are very few 'real' Christians out there. Alot who proclaim they are, but its the actions that make you a Christian.

[Imran Siddiqui]

[q=Ben Kenobi]Christ himself says that those who believe in him shall be saved, and that no one can know the father except through him.

It doesn't matter what you are, Jew or Gentile, the same rule applies for salvation. However, and this is what Paul says, the Jews retain their status as the chosen people.[/q]

But this is the part I don't understand. Jews don't believe that the guy named Yeshua was the Messiah. If no one can be saved except through him does this mean that the Jews are the chosen people but are unable to be saved (if they accept Yeshua as Messiah then they are Christians, not Jews)?

When has a Jew been safe in Jerusalem since the 620's?

For a decent amount of the time after that. Sure they had to pay a special tax by the Muslims and couldn't build new temples or repair those which fell into disrepair. And then the Christians killed all the Jews in the 1st Crusade, but under Muslim rule they were fairly safe until the 20th Century.

[Barnabas]

Often christian were intolerant or jews for not religious reasons, when they were expulsed of spain after the christians re-united the peninsula, it was more like , revenge! pay back time! because the jews usually sided with the muslims during the reconquista.

The Pope was against the expulsion, but could do nothing about the king of Spain in Spain´s golden age, period of most power.
The expulsion of the jews is one of the things that keeps Isabel la catolica from being declared a saint.

[Ben Kenobi]

But this is the part I don't understand. Jews don't believe that the guy named Yeshua was the Messiah. If no one can be saved except through him does this mean that the Jews are the chosen people but are unable to be saved (if they accept Yeshua as Messiah then they are Christians, not Jews)?

First of all, you assume that you must either be a Jew or a Christian. The dividing line is not that fine. There are people who are of the race of Israel who believe in Christ, they are the ones who can be both.

This was the mission of Christ, to bring his people back into repentence to God, and in a sense, he failed to change their hearts.

It is entirely possible for God's chosen people to be saved, and you see parts in Revelations where specific prophecies are fulfilled by them.

For a decent amount of the time after that. Sure they had to pay a special tax by the Muslims and couldn't build new temples or repair those which fell into disrepair. And then the Christians killed all the Jews in the 1st Crusade, but under Muslim rule they were fairly safe until the 20th Century

Ok, let's go back a bit to that history. Christians were very important to the middle east after the death of Christ. Are there any records or indications from this time of Christians persecuting the Jews? When the Christians were in charge with the Byzantine Empire, did we also see the Jews persecuted by the Christians? The records show significant Jewish communities throughout the Byzantine Empire.

I don't deny the persecution of the Jews by the Spain and by France and most Christian countries through the period of the middle ages. I am curious as to the answer to this question, as to where and when this antipathy arose between the Jews and the Christians.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
First of all, you assume that you must either be a Jew or a Christian. The dividing line is not that fine. There are people who are of the race of Israel who believe in Christ, they are the ones who can be both.

This was the mission of Christ, to bring his people back into repentence to God, and in a sense, he failed to change their hearts.

It is entirely possible for God's chosen people to be saved, and you see parts in Revelations where specific prophecies are fulfilled by them.

But you are missing the crux of my question. Jews are the chosen people. But most of them (a vast majority) reject Yeshua as the Messiah. They reject him as the Son of God. They will not ask him to help them on the way to salvation. Will those people not be saved? Or because they are part of the chosen people does that not matter?

I am curious as to the answer to this question, as to where and when this antipathy arose between the Jews and the Christians.

Fairly early, by 300-400 AD. The writings of Saint John Chrysostum among others were very hostile towards Jews. Many Christians may not have followed those writings, but they were fairly well known and most likely frightened Jews.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Aye, one thing I've noticed is there are very few 'real' Christians out there. Alot who proclaim they are, but its the actions that make you a Christian.

I think we've well reached our Christian bashing quota on this thread already...... and at least a third of these questions the authors know the answers to, but ask them so someone else can give the response.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[q=Ben Kenobi]Christ himself says that those who believe in him shall be saved, and that no one can know the father except through him.

It doesn't matter what you are, Jew or Gentile, the same rule applies for salvation. However, and this is what Paul says, the Jews retain their status as the chosen people.[/q]

But this is the part I don't understand. Jews don't believe that the guy named Yeshua was the Messiah. If no one can be saved except through him does this mean that the Jews are the chosen people but are unable to be saved (if they accept Yeshua as Messiah then they are Christians, not Jews)?

The problem is sin. The other big ideological split(besides the whole Jesus thing heh) is that Christians think it is the nature of man to sin and you can not be forgiven for it(except through Jesus). Jews think it *is* possible(just pretty hard and unlikley) to live a life without sining and the sins you do commit, can be forgiven if you truly repent.

Some more compassionate Christians say Jews can be saved. Some say they can't.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

I don't deny the persecution of the Jews by the Spain and by France and most Christian countries through the period of the middle ages. I am curious as to the answer to this question, as to where and when this antipathy arose between the Jews and the Christians.

Are you trying to insinuate the Jews are in some way, or any way are responsible? Christianity was not a real "religion" till after the diaspora and Jewish political power was gone for numerous generations.

It arose whenever it was economicaly or politically convenient to massacre the Jews and justified with religion.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


But you are missing the crux of my question. Jews are the chosen people. But most of them (a vast majority) reject Yeshua as the Messiah. They reject him as the Son of God. They will not ask him to help them on the way to salvation. Will those people not be saved? Or because they are part of the chosen people does that not matter?

Jews have a contract with G-D, amoung the fine print are warnings that people like Jesus will come along and stir up trouble. Nothing has changed for us, the contract still stands.... even though there is no hell in Judaism.

Really, the status of Jewish souls varies between different sects of Christianity, you'd have to narrow down your question to different sects.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

It really depends on the time period. Christians were persecuted themselves by the Roman Empire and for the most part did nothing about the Jews until well into the middle ages.

Oh what rot.

No-one should go to you for history lessons, especially with regard to Christianity.

Bishop Severus of Antioch (born 465 a.d.) :

" The whole community should be penalized for participating in that sin*.' (*the death of Jesus)

St Jerome has this to say:

“The Jews must be hated, for they daily insult Jesus Christ in their synagogues.”

Laws directed against Jews and Judaism:

To the first category belong the prohibition, under a penalty of a fine of 50 pounds in gold, of the erection of new synagogues, the preservation and maintenance of the old ones being, however, permitted ("Cod. Theod." xvi. 8, 25 [in 423], 27; "Nov. Theod." ii. 3, 3; "Cod. Just." i. 9, 19); the prohibition, under the death-penalty, of marriage with Christian women ("Cod. Just." i. 9, 6 [in 388]; "Cod. Theod." iii. 7, 2; ix. 7, 5), or even of having any contact with the women of the imperial gyneceum ("Cod. Theod." xvi. 8, 6 [in 339]; the sense is somewhat doubtful); and, finally, the prohibition, also under penalty of death, aggravated by confiscation, of the conversion of free Christians to the Jewish religion ("Cod. Just." i. 9, 16, 19 [in 439]; the convert, also, was punished with confiscation, "Cod. Theod." xvi. 8, 7 [in 357]; compare ib. xvi. 8, 1 [the date 315 is inaccurate]). A very delicate question, and one in regard to which legislation varied, concerned the detention by Jews of non-Jewish, especially Christian, slaves. Here the danger of seduction, or even of forcible circumcision, was a thing which was regarded as particularly to be dreaded. At first it was thought sufficient to renew the ancient law of Antoninus prohibiting the circumcision of even pagan slaves ("Const. Sirm." 4 [in 335], a renewal of a former constitution). The penalty for the master, it would appear, was only his loss of the slave, who was set free. But soon after, the emperor Constantius added thereto the death-penalty for the master, and in a general way forbade even the acquisition by Jews of slaves of another religion, under the penalty of their confiscation for the benefit of the treasury. In cases where the slaves were Christians, the confiscation of the owner's entire fortune was ordered ("Cod. Theod." xvi. 9, 2 [in 339]).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=329&letter=D

Laws of Theodosius II:

The third selection, a law of Theodosius II (408-410), prohibits Jews from holding any advantageous office of honor in the Roman state. They were compelled, however, to assume those public offices which entailed huge financial losses and almost certain ruin, and they were not even granted the hope of an ultimate exemption. This Novella (New Law) III of Theodosius II also makes a direct attack on the Jewish religion by reenacting a law which forbade the building of new Jewish synagogues. This prohibition was known a generation before this. It was reenacted now, probably to pacify the aroused Christian mob in the Eastern Empire which desired to crush the religious spirit of the Jews who were massing at Jerusalem and confidently looking forward to the coming of a Messianic redeemer in 440. This disability, later taken over by some Muslim states, was reenunciated by the Church which sought to arrest the progress of Judaism, its old rival.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/jews-romanlaw.html

...until well into the middle ages.

Try from the moment they had their hands on state power.

When has a Jew been safe in Jerusalem since the 620's?

Under the Umayyads, Abbasids, and Ottomans. All Muslims, you'll notice...

Suleiman (the Magnificent) felt a deep and abiding love for Jerusalem, as well as a strong desire to protect it from any future Christian incursions. Toward that end, he ordered the complete rebuilding of Jerusalem's walls in 1536. Completed five years later, the walls stretched around the entire city, 2 miles in length and 40 feet high. The city was not only well protected by this wall, it was beautifully adorned. Like a diadem, the masterfully built wall was decorated with seven jewels: its gates. The largest and most impressive was Damascus Gate at the northern end of town (shown above). Suleiman also underwrote the cost of the renovation of Jerusalem's water system, creating beautiful fountains visible to this day. When Suleiman died in 1566, the city had grown from an unwalled village of a few thousand souls to a city of around 15,000 whose population included roughly 3,000 Christians and Jews. Once again, Muslim rulers distinguished themselves both in their love for Al Quds (their name for Jerusalem) and in their tolerance of their religious neighbors.

http://www.lehrhaus.org/catalog/journey/journey4.html

More Ottoman munificence and tolerance:

The Ottoman ruler Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent in the second half of the sixteenth century gave the Jews full exclusive rights to the Kotel as a Jewish holy place of worship. The prayer area was established along a twenty two metre section of the wall with a width of three metres which was closed off by a wall running parallel to the Kotel. The area was paved and this small enclosure became the sacred prayer site of the Jewish people, and a place to mourn the destruction of the Temples.

http://www.amyisrael.co.il/brijnet/aje/j3000/old-city/kotel.htm

Compares rather well with the treatment of the Marranos in Christian Spain.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Vesayen
Really, the status of Jewish souls varies between different sects of Christianity, you'd have to narrow down your question to different sects.

Ah, interesting. I didn't realize there was such a divide on if the Jews get to be saved. I imagine it is a perplexing question once you've set forth the ideas of the Jews as the chosen people but say that no salvation except through Jesus.

[Jon Miller]

through Jesus does not mean beleiving in Jesus (although that is the easiest way)

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

What else can it mean?