Questions about the Bible , I ask as I read

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well, I'd imagine if my group was 'chosen', I'd expect God to live up to his bargain and his bargain didn't include listen to some hippie rabbi claiming to be the Son of God

Read some OT.

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

I haven't, that's why I asked .

[Robert]

Imran Siddiqui: The rub being that some Christians (a lot of them in fact) believe that you can only be saved through Jesus Christ. Now that reads to me that you must believe in Yeshua of Nazereth as the Messiah or else you won't get saved. But what of the Jews, the chosen people of God, who reject him? They are the chosen people, yet they do not believe the Messiah has come. THAT is where 'the rub' lies. As I've found out, it seems different versions of Christianity have different answers.

That's a difficult question of course.
Firstly, I hope (of course) that they'll all be saved. Like I hope that all muslims, atheists, humanists, communists, .... etc, be saved.

I don't think though that being a part of people of God ensures you of being saved. I think the Jews should live up to the convenant that God made with them. If they don't live up to the convenant, then I don't think God has to live up to it as well.

Though if they do live up to the convenant, then I think it's still valid. It's an eternal convenant God created with the Jews. Of course, the convenant foreshadows the new convenant.

But in the end these difficult questions can't be answered by me or by anyone but God. What happens to little children who die? I am eager to say that they'll be fine, since they never made a (teenager) decision for themselves. Which is just a personal thought, a wish.

What happens to those who never heard about God or Jesus? In my humble opinion that pretty much depends on the question if they have much faith in themselves. Someone who questions himself but is eager to follow Wodan or Shiva will in my humble opinion be saved. Since that's the main thing. Do you believe that you yourself can save yourself and make yourself a happy man and good? Someone who follows Shiva and is prepared to dismiss himself absolutely does that. But once again: that's my humble opinion.

There are many questions and I can't answer them. In the end I can only hope that everybody will be fine.

CyberShy: And in the opinion of christianity there is no difference between an atheist who thinks that he can live the perfect life by believing in himself or a muslim fundamentalist who thinks that he can deserve the goodness of Allah by living a good life and dying for Allah.

Imran: I believe you must speak for yourself, not Christianity. Jon Miller, for one, I think would disagree with you, and I have no doubt of his faith.

I don't think so (correct me if I'm wrong Jon).
I'm not talking about devoted muslims who dedicate their lives to follow Allah. (see my answer above this one). I'm talking about those who think they can do the good deeds that Allah asks them to do. That they can bring the justice that Allah wants them to bring. Those who are absolutely sure that they are able to chose right from wrong. To make the good decisions. And I don't care if they base those good decisions on Mein Kampf, Dat Kapital, The Quran or The Bible. I'm incapable to make the right decisions. A muslim who thinks he can perform justice as a servant of Allah is therefor not different imho then an atheist who is pretty sure that he's living a good life.

I had a co-worker, he was an atheist. He was very well informed about christianity. He said: "The thought of christianity is good, I would be a christian, were it not that I do not believe that there is a God". He was humble, he acknowledged that the message was good, he just didn't believe that this good answer really existed. To me that's more important then the question if you actually believe in the presence of God. Again that's just my humble opinion though.

I'll echo Spiffor

Before I'll thank you and Spiffor for proving my point I'd better ask why exactly you guys are laughing that hard?

There have been many with faith in God who have caused much evil. Fundamentalists HAVE faith in God and see themselves as instruments of God. They don't think they, themselves, are bringing eternal peace, but that they are doing God's work and God is working through them (not unlike Calvinist views that God works through the believer in his profession).

I do believe that God can work through humans. I do not believe that those humans are very fond of themselves and very sure that they are the instruments of God, and that they are the divine authorized people to do that what God wants them to do. Those people think too much of themselves.

There have been plenty who have faith in mankind who have done much good as well.

Absolutely. Mankind does a lot of good. We have to chose between good and evil. And we do not chose evil all the time. Though I do believe that the good doesn't cancel out the evil.

If I murder someone you love very much, then I can apologize, I can do whatever I want for you, help you, pay you, I can be punished. We may even become friends because I really really am sorry and try to do good to you. But I'll never be able to cancel out the murdering of that person. The pain will stay.

We think that our good deeds can neutralize our evil deeds. I don't believe that. Sometimes: yes. All the time: no.

Take a look at this world. There's more evil in it then goodness. Unfortunately. I hate that. It's a mess

To cast them aside betrays a horrid bias.

I do not cast them aside.
I just don't believe that humanity can bring us to the paradise. Do you?

It is faith in mankind that brought us the Enlightenment, one of greatest 'events' in the history of the human race.

Technically it's even protestantism that brought us the enlightement. Those nations that are historically protestant nations are most enlightent. I say that with a humble mind, since those are the nations as well that murder the most babies and have the most spoiled individualistic egocentric inhabitants.
My own country, The Netherlands, is historicly perhaps the most 'protestant' (calvinistic) country in the world. Most people would say that Holland is the most enlightened country. I think my country is the worst of all.

Protestantism brings individualism. Which is good in the beginning. Everyone should be responsible for their own deeds. Someone shouldn't tell anotherone what to do and what to don't. That's christianity in the end, your personal stance towards God. No church can force you.

It's that protestant (I believe christian) attitude that makes that much people take that freedom to not turn back to God, but to be their own God. Some call that enlightment. It brought much good to us, but did it bring us much happyness? If I hear my fellow dutchmen mourn and cry about how poor they are and how everything sucks then I wonder how happy they are. And if they're really enligthent enough to understand that they're living in one of the worlds richest nations. And that our poor people are the richest poor people in the world.

In Holland we are all gods.
Welcome to paradise.
We still die though.
You may have faith that Holland is paradise. You may have faith that the enlightment may bring us paradise.

I have no faith in that. I only have faith in God.

[Robert]

a small survey:

1. Are you a good person?

2. Did you ever did something evil or wrong?

3. Do you perfectly know the difference between what is good and what is evil?

4. Will you do wrong again in the future?

5. Do you want to do wrong?

6. Do you have faith in yourself, do you believe that you can make this world a better place?

[Jon Miller]

I think that accepting the gift of Christ comes from accepting the light that you are given.. (whether that is a Muslim or a atheist... or Christian)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

I would say that Muslims have more light available then atheists, but it might be well hidden.

There is definitely an ordering of how close different groups are to the Truth. Christianity is the closest (but doesn't have it all, I think), Judaism and Islam follow. I don't know enough to put everything in order, but even if I was an expert on all religions, I still would probably not get the order right.

Especially when we leave the religions of the Book, I am not going to speculate on what light might be accepted.

Jon Miller
(if I am not making sense, I appologise, I should have gone to bed long ago)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I find it pretty boring actually.

Mythology ftw

The Synoptic Gospels are good drama though (or can be).

However the whole 'god dies as sacrifice and is reborn' is so Egypto-Sumerian-Norse, baby, to name but three.

Then there's the virgin/mother/whore aspect of Mary & Mary Magdalene- just a tad too much Artemis/Ashtaroth/Aphrodite for my liking.

And the big guy with the plagues and devastations ?

Zeus, Poseidon and Hades, come on down!


Lots of trinities there. I'm sure they have no significance.

Then of course there's Zoroastrianism and its angelology, and god of light contending against the force of darkness. Sounds familiar, that....

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by CyberShy

Technically it's even protestantism that brought us the enlightement. Those nations that are historically protestant nations are most enlightent. I say that with a humble mind, since those are the nations as well that murder the most babies and have the most spoiled individualistic egocentric inhabitants.
My own country, The Netherlands, is historicly perhaps the most 'protestant' (calvinistic) country in the world. Most people would say that Holland is the most enlightened country. I think my country is the worst of all.

Protestantism brings individualism. Which is good in the beginning. Everyone should be responsible for their own deeds. Someone shouldn't tell anotherone what to do and what to don't. That's christianity in the end, your personal stance towards God. No church can force you.

It's that protestant (I believe christian) attitude that makes that much people take that freedom to not turn back to God, but to be their own God. Some call that enlightment. It brought much good to us, but did it bring us much happyness? If I hear my fellow dutchmen mourn and cry about how poor they are and how everything sucks then I wonder how happy they are. And if they're really enligthent enough to understand that they're living in one of the worlds richest nations. And that our poor people are the richest poor people in the world.

In Holland we are all gods.
Welcome to paradise.
We still die though.
You may have faith that Holland is paradise. You may have faith that the enlightment may bring us paradise.

I have no faith in that. I only have faith in God.

I don´t think the things you mention have to do something with protestantism itself, but rather what you make out of it.

Consider for example the small protestant parishes throughout the USA.
Many of them have the desire to force their own believes on all of the other inhabitatants of the USA (especially with sexuality [gay marriages, contraception etc.] but also their view of Evolution/Creation) for example by (ab)using legislative means to, for example, ban Evolution (or force teachers to teach creationism in science as well) or to block attempts concerning gay marriages.
They could rather be compared to the catholic church during the medieval ages, than to the rather tolerant and individualistic protestant churches in germany or the netherlands.

It´s probably rather some kind of luck that our protestant church didn´t develop along the same lines as those protestant parishes (or it could have something to do, that many of the first immigrants to USA were people who, in Europe, were persecuted for their faith).

[Robert]

Proteus, you mix up the key elements of protestantism and the way protestantism is 'executed'.
Protestantism believes in a personal responsibility and has no hierarchical authority.

Eventough in our days protestantism may be very strict and organized, that doesn't mean that in those days protestantism was a total new way of thinking. The protestants could read the Bible themselves, make their own conclusions, debate and disagree with each other. It's not for nothing that the enlightment was born in protestant countries.

[Robert]

@Jon:

According to Paul the function of the law is to show that humans are incapable and sinfull.
He says that every law will do. Of course the most 'perfect' law would be Moses' law. Though imho the Quran or the Veda's or whatever will do. Even your own law, if a man can't live up to his own laws and does those things he don't wants to do, then it may show to him that he is incapable and sinfull.

I agree with you that it differs from man to man how much light someone has had. I would call that light the light that shines on our bad spots and reveals our incapabilities and sinfullness. And indeed, some people got more light then others. And I believe as well that God will take that into account.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Proteus, you mix up the key elements of protestantism and the way protestantism is 'executed'.
Protestantism believes in a personal responsibility and has no hierarchical authority.

Eventough in our days protestantism may be very strict and organized, that doesn't mean that in those days protestantism was a total new way of thinking. The protestants could read the Bible themselves, make their own conclusions, debate and disagree with each other. It's not for nothing that the enlightment was born in protestant countries.

Of course, that´s right.
There can be great differences between the principles of a faith system, and what its believers make out of it; in Islam for example the terrorists who think they serve their faith best by flying planes into skyscrapers, or by those religious guards in saudi arabia, who, during a fire in a girls school beat all the girls who wanted to escape out of the building and forced them back into the building, because they didn´t wear headscarfs and therefore were not properly clothed to get outside of a building and probably be seen by men (resulting in almost all of them getting killed due to the fire).

The thoughts you wrote in your posting remind me more of the universalist belief systems, though, as you think that also people who don´t adhere to the christian faith but to other, non christian, faiths may get saved by god, whereas (IMHO) the core principles of the protestant faith (although much more individualistic and much less hierarchical) still only saw salvation due to the faith in Jesus.

[molly bloom]

Technically it's even protestantism that brought us the enlightement. Those nations that are historically protestant nations are most enlightent.

Cybershy


That would be the United Provinces that participated in the slave trade in Africa and the Americas, then, would it ?

And persecuted Roman Catholics in the Netherlands ?

And ran slave plantations in the Dutch East Indies ?


Still at least you had Multatuli to protest about it.



Or then of course there's the equally enlightened Protestant English Commonwealth under Oliver Cromwell, which prosecuted a murderous war against the Roman Catholic Irish- because of their religion.

Or John Calvin who connived and cooperated with the Inquisition to judicially murder the Anti-Trinitarian Michael Servetus.

Or the Puritan settlers of North America who took delight in the deaths by plagues of the Indians.

The Enlightenment was a broad movement that also had members or participants in France- not notably a Protestant country. I'm sure you've heard of Diderot, Voltaire, Descartes, d'Alembert, 'les Philosophes' Blaise Pascal....

Protestantism believes in a personal responsibility and has no hierarchical authority.

Not true- at least for Presbyterianism and Lutheranism, to name but two Protestant sects.

The Catholic Church (at least according to its catechism) also believes in personal responsibility.

[Spiffor]

Before I'll thank you and Spiffor for proving my point I'd better ask why exactly you guys are laughing that hard?

The world has suffered quite a healthy dose of evil coming from people who had faith in God. Just to cite current examples, I'm sure even you would consider the likes of Bin Laden, the Iranian Mullahs, the Taliban, or the Lord's Resistance Army to be evil.

So much for the lack of faith in God that has "brought us all evil"

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Spiffor


So much for the lack of faith in God that has "brought us all evil"

They never expect the Spanish Inquisition!!!

The door flies open and Cardinal Ximinez of Spain [Palin] enters, flanked by two junior cardinals. Cardinal Biggles [Jones] has goggles pushed over his forehead. Cardinal Fang [Gilliam] is just Cardinal Fang]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

[The Inquisition exits]

http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz/spanish/t2.html

[Robert]

@Proteus,

Like I said, the core of protestantism is individualism and individual responsibility. It's that core that resulted in the enlightment. Of course there are much topics about which there are multiple different opinions.

You cannot denie that it's the protestant part of the world that started the enlightment.

as you think that also people who don´t adhere to the christian faith but to other, non christian, faiths may get saved by god, whereas (IMHO) the core principles of the protestant faith (although much more individualistic and much less hierarchical) still only saw salvation due to the faith in Jesus.

I think that even Calvin himself believed that, like Jon said, everybody would be judged upon 'the light they had received.'.
It doesn't matter if we name Jesus Jesus and God God. What matters is that we have faith in him.

Molly_Bloom: That would be the United Provinces that participated in the slave trade in Africa and the Americas, then, would it ?

And persecuted Roman Catholics in the Netherlands ?

And ran slave plantations in the Dutch East Indies ?


Still at least you had Multatuli to protest about it.
...... [etc. etc. etc.]

I said that protestantism STARTED the enlightment. I didn't say taht protestants are the most enlightent people in the world who didn't do anything wrong. If you would've read my posts you would've read that christians aren't saints.

Not true- at least for Presbyterianism and Lutheranism, to name but two Protestant sects.

you're talking about later evolutions of protestantism. Maarten Luther, the father of the Lutherian church, believed that only personal faith would save.

The Catholic Church (at least according to its catechism) also believes in personal responsibility.

True, but they also believe that the church reigns in the name of Jesus and has the authority to tell the people what to do and what not to do. In the RCC you're partially personal responsible. YOu're responsible for your own mistakes, but you don't get the responisibility to make your own choises. The church tells you what to do.

Spiffor: The world has suffered quite a healthy dose of evil coming from people who had faith in God. Just to cite current examples, I'm sure even you would consider the likes of Bin Laden, the Iranian Mullahs, the Taliban, or the Lord's Resistance Army to be evil.

So much for the lack of faith in God that has "brought us all evil"

Ok, you're totally missing my point.
Never mind, you most probably don't even want to know or understand my point. Have fun with your own irrelevant point.

conslusion

You guys come with excuses why protestantism isn't enlightent or whatever. That's all nice though it's not the point (this is a different point then yours Spiffor, in case you mix up things in your head again).
The point is that the protestant way of thinking started the enlightment.