Questions about the Bible , I ask as I read

[Arrian]

Why do you disagree with it? Because it's depressing? Because it's defeatist?
We will all die! That's true, despite that it's depressingly defeatist.

If you disagree, why do you disagree that we can't sustain ourselves?

1. I do not believe in God.
2. Thus, I find the idea that we can't figure things out* for ourselves to be frustrating, not only b/c it's defeatist, but also because it presumes a deity I don't believe exists. Wouldn't that frustrate you?

* - by "figure things out" I don't mean find out the answer to every question. I mean sort out our problems as they arise. Think for ourselves, and make choices for ourselves.

-Arrian

[Robert]

Vessayen

Vessayen: Why don't you leave it to the Jews to decide what their religion is? It never ceases to amaze me what scriptual straws Christians grasp at to tell us Jews what OUR holy book says

Firstly, it's our holy book as well. (in fact it's our holy books
Secondly, non-christians are telling me all the time what my Bible says as well, nothing to get angry about

when we have not even imagined it that way, for thousands of years.

There have been enough Jews to interperted it that way.

If you want to quote scripture, look it up and quote it for me to save me and everyone else some time and i'll respond more thoroughly.

I'm not really in for a debate about the existance of hell in the old testament. There are texts on which can be based that there is a hell. I understand that you, and maybe 99% of the jews, don't believe in it. That's fine with me. It's just that we, christians, do actually find support for hell in the old testament as well.

I meant why bother to try to improve the world, if there is no G-D? If the only reason to improve, is because of him? A defeatist attitude.

Because I live in it. That's why.
Why should I bother to paint my house while I'm going to sell it within the next 30 years anyway? Well, because I'll have to live in it for the next 30 years.
Because I want my children to live in a good world. That's why.

So you attack the authority and not the merits? I'm not sure what circles you travel in but I've heard this from numerous respected scholars on the period and CHRISTIAN theologians....

Firstly, come with any theory and you'll find christian theologians who'll support it.

Secondly, you come with Jesus was an Essene without any arguments for it. I know that the teaching of the Essenes had some simularities with the teachings of Jesus. Well, that's all. The rest is speculation.
Jesus shared more with the pharisees then with the essenes. I'm not really in for a "Jesus was an essene" debate since it's all pure speculation anyway.

Jon Miller

Cybershy, anyone who is saved will be 'fixed'

Against their will?

Arrian

CyberShy: Why do you disagree with it? Because it's depressing? Because it's defeatist?
We will all die! That's true, despite that it's depressingly defeatist.

If you disagree, why do you disagree that we can't sustain ourselves?

Arrian: 1. I do not believe in God.

The question if man can sustain itself, or in better words, if man can make the world / himself perfect (or at least pretty good) is independant to the question if God exists. Even if God doesn't exist then I still believe that I (we) can't make this a perfect (good enough) world.

2. Thus, I find the idea that we can't figure things out* for ourselves to be frustrating, not only b/c it's defeatist, but also because it presumes a deity I don't believe exists. Wouldn't that frustrate you?

If I look at this world and all the stupidity I and others do, then I am frustrated. This world sucks. Hate, murdering, raping, selfishness, fights, etc. It's really helps me to know that it'll all be solved one day.

If you look at this world, do you feel like it's a good world? Do you feel that we'll ever be able to make it perfect? Even if I want to do good, I do wrong. Sometimes I say things to people to help them, but what I do is hurt them or insult them, without that I wanted to. Just because I chosed the wrong words. I'm incapable.

by "figure things out" I don't mean find out the answer to every question. I mean sort out our problems as they arise. Think for ourselves, and make choices for ourselves.

So, you agree that we can't answer every question?
Do you feel like you can sort out all problems that arise?
Of course you can make choises of yourself, but do you feel like you always make the right choises?

[Jon Miller]

How is it against their will?

God reads the heart.. limiting Him isn't a wise thing to do.

The choices they make would show whether it is against their will or not.

Jon Miller

[Arrian]

It's really helps me to believe that it'll all be solved one day.

Fixed.

Do you feel that we'll ever be able to make it perfect?

Woah, now, I never said anything about perfection. Clearly not. Perfection is unattainable. That doesn't mean we cannot make progress.

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

Basically the Bible doesn't say that the key is the realisation that God is god, and man is man.

It says that we are all saved through Jesus Christ. And it says that all that Beleive in Jesus Christ are saved.

People reasoning, and looking at examples in Hebrews and other scripture, determine that it is possible to be saved without knowing the existence of Jesus Chirst. (not all do, but a lot do)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Cybershy, a lot of Christians don't beleive in a hell of eternal torment.

SDA's view of hell (one of the things we have right in comparison to other denominations):

Adventist Adventism: Unlike many other Christian denominations, Seventh-day Adventists do not believe the wicked suffer conscious torture and torment for all eternity in a fiery hell. Instead, in a perfect balance of love, justice, and free will, God considers each person’s case and decides their fate. For those who have, by faith, accepted Jesus Christ's death on the cross for their sin and have united their lives with Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, they will spend eternity in heaven rejoicing in His love and grace. Those who reject Jesus Christ’s punishment and death for their sins have by default chosen to be punished and die for their own sins. Because God allows every person free will, God accepts that decision and grants them a punishment that exactly matches their sin and then they die. The Adventist view of hell is often referred to as annihilationism. However Seventh Day Adventists would argue that such a label has pejorative connotations which imply that the punishment of the wicked is an act of vengeance in which an angry God annihilates anyone who dares to rebel against His sovereignty. Instead of a vengeful God "rubbing out" sinners, SDAs see sin as intrinsically self defeating. Because sinners refuse to be connected to the Source of Life, they cannot live forever since there is no eternal life apart from God.

1. SDA's support their viewpoint by pointing out that the Bible, in Romans 6:23, states that "...the wages of sin is death". If the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, SDA’s ask, why do many Christians preach that the wages of sin is eternal life, in torment? 2. SDA's further point out that the Bible, in I Timothy 6:15,16, states that, "God ... alone is immortal". If God alone is immortal, how do Satan, his evil angels, and those who rejected Jesus Christ magically become immortal too and live forever in hell? 3. SDA's further argue that the entire Bible portrays God as the Source of Life. (Genesis 1, In the beginning God created the earth, mankind and everything else) SDA's argue that God is not simply alive, He is the Source of Life itself. If God is in fact the Source of Life, how could sinners survive for an eternity of burning while being totally cut off from that Source of Life, God? 4. Furthermore, SDA's say the concept of an everlasting torture chamber, presided over by God, terribly misrepresents God's true character of love, justice and free will. How could a God of love, torture people forever? How could a God of justice, punish a few years of sin with an infinity of torture? How could a God who is committed to free will force a person to stay alive throughout eternity and torture them for ever and ever? 5. SDA's say that an ever burning hell would make Christ's victory on the cross only a partial victory. The Bible makes it clear Christ's victory over Satan is a total victory. If that is true, then why would God have to settle for sin and sinners continuing to inhabit a part of the universe for all eternity? SDA's say that since Christ's victory over Satan was total and complete, one day the universe will be cleansed of all sin and restored to its former sinless state. 6. In both the Old and New Testament, SDA’s point out that God gives mankind a free will choice between life and death. (Deuteronomy 30:19, for example, says, “I have set before you life and death … Now choose life”.) Why would God mislead us by saying the choice is between “life” and “death” if, the real choice is between life or life? Eternal life in heaven or eternal life in hell. 7. SDA’s say the Bible contains hundreds of references to the fate of the wicked which show that the wicked will ultimately be, “burned up”, “destroyed”, “consumed”, “devoured”, “ashes on the ground”, “slain”, brought to “nothing”, “annihilated”, “perish”, “blotted out forever”, etc. Why then, SDA’s ask, do many denominations argue that the wicked are immortal and cannot die? 8. Finally, SDA’s believe that God will create a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1, Isaiah 65:17) and “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Revelation 21:4. The text says "all" crying and sorrow and pain and death and tears will be "wiped away". SDA’s say there will not be an ever burning hell where those things go on forever. The entire universe will have been restored to its original sinless state. Sin and sinners will be no more and every heart will throb with joy as the redeemed gaze on the face of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who saved them by His grace. Adventists conclude that it will then be clear that in the entire war between God and Satan, God will have never violated His character of love and justice and He will never have violated free will.

Annihilationism. Also known as Conditionalism. Many believe in the existence of hell, but deny the idea of hell continuing to exist for all eternity. Annihilationists/Conditionalists reject the idea of the immortality of the soul, and assert that after undergoing a certain amount of punishment, the souls of the wicked will be annihilated. Others believe there is no conscious Hell at all but the word refers to the decay of Earthly remains in the ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdition

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

I will say again: the best, surest way to receive salvation is to Beleive in Jesus.

Jon Miller
(just so that people don't have me wrong)

[Vesayen]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by CyberShy
Vessayen

Vessayen: Why don't you leave it to the Jews to decide what their religion is? It never ceases to amaze me what scriptual straws Christians grasp at to tell us Jews what OUR holy book says

Firstly, it's our holy book as well. (in fact it's our holy books
Secondly, non-christians are telling me all the time what my Bible says as well, nothing to get angry about

Your "version" is not the same version as the original which can be proven empirically-if you'd like to start another thread on that i'd be happy and post. Yours is filled with accidental and intentional mistranslation and had an emphasis on aspects which are not there, for millennia.

Secondly it has no religious value for you because your church said to discard it. Christians do not follow the Torah or any of its laws. Some of the laws you follow from your own holy book, overlap. You do not follow the laws of the Torah, you follow the laws of the New Testament. It is of historical importance, little else. A Christian has no place saying "Jews believe their holy book means X and it IS X" anymore then a Jew should say "Christians believe their holy book means Y and it IS Y." You could say "I as a Christian believe a the Jewish holy book means Y" however.

Jews do not believe in hell and it is not in the Torah. If Christians misread their "old testament", well that’s different. I really am honest, please pull up the quotes-I am away from my home for 2 days so I don't have access to my books... and looking online is well, a pain in the ###. Otherwise I’d pull up the quotes myself.

when we have not even imagined it that way, for thousands of years.

There have been enough Jews to interperted it that way.

Wrong. There is a very small group of kabalist fanatics(kabalists are morons-sorry, they are Jews, but incredibly misguided.) and some of that small group believe in an idea like hell. The rest of Judaism does not share this view and a majority of views look at kabalism with skepticism, if not active distrust. Kabalism is filled with "mysticism" which draws focus and attention from what Judaism is ACTUALLY about, following the law and making the world a better place-not pondering your naval and playing numerological games which supposed magic not in the Torah which is borderline idolatry.

Kabalah might be a word alot of non Jews are familiar with, vaguely, but most Jews have absolutely no connection with it and only an even smaller subset have inherited the ridiculous idea of a possible place, like hell. This group are also the same ones who are most prone to reject evolution and believe in young earth theory. Likewise-idiots, which is a term I would use on young-earth and anti evolution nuts of any religion-which are ideas most Jews do NOT believe in. See my numerous other posts calling young-earth and anti evolution nuts of all religions, idiots-which is about the only time I’ll actually extend that insult to religious belief-otherwise I am entirely tolerant.

And yes, that is probably a sin but I just can not stand these idiots.

If you want to say a small subset of a small subset of a group which is actively viewed with skepticism if not active dislike for their insanity, then yes, you could say that small group of a small group has an idea similar to a Christian idea of hell. Otherwise, no. This would be significantly less then 1% of the Jewish population.

If you want to quote scripture, look it up and quote it for me to save me and everyone else some time and I’ll respond more thoroughly.

I'm not really in for a debate about the existence of hell in the old testament. There are texts on which can be based that there is a hell. I understand that you, and maybe 99% of the jews, don't believe in it. That's fine with me. It's just that we, christians, do actually find support for hell in the old testament as well.

I am, I *ALWAYS* am. Really... if you want to start a new thread, i'm in. This really is a soft spot for me because the very idea of hell clashes entirely with Judaism and there is an idea among many non Jews that Jews believe in hell-we do not. Saying that Jews believe in hell is saying Jews believe in unbelievable barbarism so horrific that G-D himself would be an immoral monster for it and I don't much like my G-D being called a blood thirsty monster. Saying Jews believe in hell is a direct and horrific slander of the G-D of Israel. That is why I am so touchy on the subject.

I have met a few of that less then 1% on my trips to Israel and they are nuts-I can't stand them for the above mentioned reasons and others.

Christians can say that the old testament says that Jesus is the messiah. It does not say that either. However do not say the Torah says hell exists, or that Jews believe in it.

We really do NOT have the same holy books.

I meant why bother to try to improve the world, if there is no G-D? If the only reason to improve, is because of him? A defeatist attitude.

Because I live in it. That's why.
Why should I bother to paint my house while I'm going to sell it within the next 30 years anyway? Well, because I'll have to live in it for the next 30 years.
Because I want my children to live in a good world. That's why.

That is what I was getting at. It was rhetorical. We should work to improve the world independant of the existance of G-D.

So you attack the authority and not the merits? I'm not sure what circles you travel in but I've heard this from numerous respected scholars on the period and CHRISTIAN theologians....

Firstly, come with any theory and you'll find christian theologians who'll support it.

Give me a few days. I need to track down one of my history professors from my junior year, he was protestant minister and taught a class I took on the era of Jesus's life from a historical view(VERY good class-one of the best i've taken in college). Very cool guy too.

[Jon Miller]

I have heard the Essene connection, it is a fairly common speculation Cybershy. However, I will say that like a lot of speculation which modern theologians engage in, there is a lot of modification of information to arrive at it (I don't think this bit is right, so throw it away, I think there was this then, and that is similiar to my interpretation of this, so I will say they are the same thing, etc etc etc)

Jon Miller
(basically, modern theology is interesting.. but it isn't a science, it is more like crit. lit., this is something that many people don't understand)

[Robert]

Small reaction only on the essene connection.
I know that it's a popular theory. I'm studying theology on a secular state-university (in case you think it's a fundy-based university ) and even my semi-secular professor New Testament, with whom I disagree a lot of time, thought that the Essene theory was nothing more then a little bit of speculation.

[Robert]

Jon Miller

How is it against their will?

God reads the heart.. limiting Him isn't a wise thing to do.

The choices they make would show whether it is against their will or not.

Jon Miller

Do I read you right if I conclude that we both agree on this, that not everybody will be 'saved' but only those who want to be saved? (of course keeping into mind that those who don't know anything about this will be 'judged' upon the knowledge they have)

Arrian

Woah, now, I never said anything about perfection. Clearly not. Perfection is unattainable. That doesn't mean we cannot make progress.

But do you believe that we can make enough progress?
And why do you keep up the depressing idea that it can never be perfect?

Jon Miller

Basically the Bible doesn't say that the key is the realisation that God is god, and man is man.

That's true. I said it in my own words, not in the words of the Bible. Though if you investigate the problem of the original sin, then you see that man wanted to be like God, knowing the difference between good and evil. (which includes being able themselves to decide on what is good and what is evil. Which directs to the conclusion that 'being like God' means 'have the authority to decide over good and evil'.)

I conclude from that that giving the power to decide over good and evil to God means that you let God be god, and accept that a man is man, and not god.

This is all a part of being a christian, by wanting to follow God. If you want to follow God, then you agree that he leads your life and is God. That he decides over good and evil.

It says that we are all saved through Jesus Christ. And it says that all that Beleive in Jesus Christ are saved.

True. But no one can believe in Jesus Christ while he keeps stating that he's capable to make the right decisions. Having faith in Jesus means having faith in him as your Lord (and decision maker)

People reasoning, and looking at examples in Hebrews and other scripture, determine that it is possible to be saved without knowing the existence of Jesus Chirst. (not all do, but a lot do)

So do I.

Cybershy, a lot of Christians don't beleive in a hell of eternal torment.

I know. I think I never said that all christians believe in hell btw

Vessayen

Your "version" is not the same version as the original which can be proven empirically-if you'd like to start another thread on that i'd be happy and post. Yours is filled with accidental and intentional mistranslation and had an emphasis on aspects which are not there, for millennia.

'Our' version is the same as 'yours'. Our translation may be different than yours. I'll admit immediately that translations are never perfect, and that 'our' translation of the books of the Old Testament is not perfect. I'm pretty sure though that neither is yours.

I'm very willing to debate translations within 2 years, when I've learned Hebrew.

Secondly it has no religious value for you because your church said to discard it. Christians do not follow the Torah or any of its laws. Some of the laws you follow from your own holy book, overlap. You do not follow the laws of the Torah, you follow the laws of the New Testament. It is of historical importance, little else.

I think you completely don't understand the christian faith and use of the Old Testament.

A Christian has no place saying "Jews believe their holy book means X and it IS X" anymore then a Jew should say "Christians believe their holy book means Y and it IS Y."

Why not? You can tell me what you think that 'our' 'holy' books mean. I have no problem with that.

You could say "I as a Christian believe a the Jewish holy book means Y" however.

oh well.......... if it's that important to you I'll formulate my words differently.

Jews do not believe in hell and it is not in the Torah.

Wrong. Jews do not believe in hell, but it is in the Torah
You just have a wrong interpertation of the Torah. Most probably you mean the Tenach and not the Torah btw, since the Tenach is the entire Old Testament while the Torah is only the 5 books of Moses. Of course I all believe that as a christian and you may think otherwise (did I phrase it well that way )

If Christians misread their "old testament", well that’s different.

Is it possible that you misread your Tenach?

I really am honest, please pull up the quotes-I am away from my home for 2 days so I don't have access to my books... and looking online is well, a pain in the ###. Otherwise I’d pull up the quotes myself.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Those are most important. The others may be more about death then hell. (debatable)
In fact I think Daniel 12:2 is the strongest.

Of course it all comes down to the difference between gehenna and sha'owl.

Saying that Jews believe in hell is saying Jews believe in unbelievable barbarism so horrific that G-D himself would be an immoral monster for it and I don't much like my G-D being called a blood thirsty monster.

Well, I have no interest in debating the question if Jews believe in hell. That makes no sence that I tell you what you believe. I am prepared to debate the existance of hell in the old testament though.

And I share with you that a torture-medieval-alike-hell is not my believe either. I just believe that hell is the place where God is not. All the rest is figure of speech.

Christians can say that the old testament says that Jesus is the messiah. It does not say that either.

Well, the Old Testament doesn't speak about Jesus as a person, it only prophetises about the Messiah. If you say that it doesn't says that Jesus is the Messiah, I agree, his name isn't mentioned after all.

It does forsay that the Messiah would suffer, imho. Though the majority of the prophetises about the Messiah are about a Messiah who is King indeed.

But that'll lead us to a Issiah 53 debate.

We really do NOT have the same holy books.

We do, we just don't have the same translation and interpertation

That is what I was getting at. It was rhetorical. We should work to improve the world independant of the existance of G-D.

Which I've never argued

Give me a few days. I need to track down one of my history professors from my junior year, he was protestant minister and taught a class I took on the era of Jesus's life from a historical view(VERY good class-one of the best i've taken in college). Very cool guy too.

I believe that you'll find theologians who support it. I said that you'll find theologians for any theory you can come up with who support it.

[Arrian]

But do you believe that we can make enough progress?
And why do you keep up the depressing idea that it can never be perfect?

1. Define "enough progress." Enough for what?? Is there some sort of mathematical equation of goodness? Bah.

2. Because it's patently obvious that things will never be perfect, if only because what one person thinks is perfect another dislikes (not that that is the only reason!). That doesn't have to be depressing, however. You can look at it in the glass-half-full sort of way and think of progress (however you define that) as victory.

Hey, our existence can be pretty depressing if you fixate on the negative things. I for one don't need an invisible friend to help me look at the positive. Most times, anyway

-Arrian

[Vesayen]

I think you completely don't understand the christian faith and use of the Old Testament.

(almost)almost the entire emphasis and meaning of the Torah, is to follow the law. You threw out the law in its entirtey.

Why not? You can tell me what you think that 'our' 'holy' books mean. I have no problem with that.

Because your interpretation is one of the highest slanders possible of my G-D.

Wrong. Jews do not believe in hell, but it is in the Torah
You just have a wrong interpertation of the Torah. Most probably you mean the Tenach and not the Torah btw, since the Tenach is the entire Old Testament while the Torah is only the 5 books of Moses. Of course I all believe that as a christian and you may think otherwise (did I phrase it well that way )

Pull up the quotes then and lets start a new thread… I am quite sincere.

The book of Daniel is not one of the five books. However it is filled with apocalyptic visions which were pretty pervasive at the time. Have you ever actually read Daniel? It well, sounds like an acid trip(really). Its borderline uninterruptible. I don't see how that describes hell. However even more then that, it does not hold the same religious authority that the five books, or other books in the Tanach do. It could easily just be something some guy wrote because well, the era was willed with people writing similar apocalyptic messages. Most of them did not receive any acceptance but that makes all of them suspect.

EVEN THEN that quote is EASILY explainable.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt

Some of the dead will rise… when Meshiach comes, it has been said by some of the prophets that some people will be resurrected, who this is, is unclear.

So back to Daniel….. so people will wake up, some to live forever, and some to shame and everlasting contempt….. I am moderately sure “everlasting” is a mistranslation but I’ll need to check that tomorrow. However assuming that is correct it still works fine. Why is it bad to commit a sin in Judaism? Not because you will be punished but because it is BAD to sin. The action itself is inherently bad and you do not not do it because you fear consequences, but because it is wrong and you do not want to disappoint G-D. So if you were resurrected and you were a Jew who was an idolator, or a murderer… then boom your alive, you’d know basically instantly how badly you had messed up. If I had been a bad sinner and then G-D brought me back to life to live forever, I would know in that moment how badly I messed up, I’d be pretty shamed I had not followed his commandment. Judaism does not require you looking to some sacrifice ala Jesus to be forgiven-you do not need ANY EXTERNAL SOURCE, all you have to do is realize the thing you did was wrong and commit yourself to not do it again. If you did not do that-which is pretty minor, then were raised to live forever, I’d be pretty shamed too.

This is not a description of hell, it is one passage in a lengthy book of prophecy, which describes what will happen to some sinners who are for some reason resurrected after Meshiach comes.

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Out of context. Isaiah describes in part in his book the resurrection when the Meshiach comes, that some of the righteous maybe resurrected(its unclear who). That passage does not describe hell.

And they
Either the living, or the newly resurrected, the they is unspecific but does not matter

shall go forth
and they will go look, self explanatory

and look upon the carcases
At CORPSES. It does not describe souls or anything intangible does it? It describes a physical body. A corpse.

of the men that have transgressed against me:

Of sinners, or people who angered god

for their worm shall not die
Their worm won’t die. This is also fairly clear. They won’t be resurrected. That is not the same as hell. It is saying that sinners won’t be resurrected, however it is not even clear if all of the righteous will be resurrected so it is not a big deal.

neither shall their fire be quenched;
This is not literal fire. It means their hatred of G-D. What, is every reference of fire in Judaism supposed to be a reference to hell? That is like saying every reference to water IS a reference to the red sea… there is no connection.

and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh
Resurrecting sinners when it is not even clear if all the righteous would be resurrected, would not be beneficial to the world, now would it?

Further, Isaiah has the same problem as the book of Daniel, its source is questionable-it could have been written by a human. Isaiah describes what is happening on earth and nothing else. There are no laws in Daniel or Isaiah, no guideline for living your life, no commandments or forbidden actions. It does not have the same moral authority as the 5 books because it HAS no moral authority. It has never been interpreted as a description of hell, it has been thought of as “crazy #### we won’t waste our time with” by Jews, for most of Judaism.

You could say that Isaiah and Daniel are entirley the work of men, not pay any attention to them your entire life, have not commited a sin and live a good Jewish life.

And I share with you that a torture-medieval-alike-hell is not my believe either. I just believe that hell is the place where God is not. All the rest is figure of speech.

How could G-D not be in any place?

Well, the Old Testament doesn't speak about Jesus as a person, it only prophetises about the Messiah. If you say that it doesn't says that Jesus is the Messiah, I agree, his name isn't mentioned after all.

The 5 books of Moses do not prophecies Jesus.

If you want to look over more extensive books of prophecy which carry no moral authority and really, sound like they were inspired by acid trips, and grab bits of pieces, I’d need to see the bits and pieces.

Off to work, back later.

[Jon Miller]

Cybershy, I think that Jews regard Daniel as aprocapha

Jon Miller

[Robert]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Cybershy, I think that Jews regard Daniel as aprocapha

Jon Miller

aprocapha?