Questions about the Bible , I ask as I read

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I don't apologise for the treatement of Jewish people by Christians in Europe, however when was the last time the Christians did anything to a Jew or the Jewish population as a whole?

Pope Pius XII in WW2. The Vatican backed the pro-Nazi Ustasha regime, and helped its war-criminals escape afterwards.

The priest designated to oversee the canonization of 'Hitler's Pope', Peter Gumpel, told CBC in 2000 that “It is a fact that the Jews have killed Christ. This is an undeniable historical fact,”

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CyberShy


you're talking about later evolutions of protestantism. Maarten Luther, the father of the Lutherian church, believed that only personal faith would save.

Which ones did you have in mind ?

Lollardy ? The Hussite Church? The Waldenses ?

Luther's protest (supported by German princes/electors) is generally viewed as being the beginnings of Protestantism.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Spiffor

A world that has lost it's faith in God will only have faith in mankind. In the end that's what brought us all evil.

I would like to echo this reaction.

-Arrian

[Spiffor]

Ok, you're totally missing my point.
Never mind, you most probably don't even want to know or understand my point. Have fun with your own irrelevant point.

OK, now for a less trollish answer.

To you "all evil" in this world comes from the fact that the humans want to "build a better world" despite not agreeing on what a better world would be. In other words, "all evil" in this world comes from political/religious/philosophical/whatever ideology.

According to you, the only right way for the word to improve is when God decides so. Human efforts to make the world a better place are bound to do evil, and they are actually the sole source of evil.

I strongly disagree with this. There's plenty of evil that comes from people who plainly don't care about others or about the world. There's plenty of evil, oppression, suffering, murder etc. that comes from people without any ideological agenda, and who are merely self-serving bastards.

Slavers needn't believe in slavery as "the greater good" to be slavers. Rapists don't need to "believe in rape" to be rapists. Etc.

So much for ideology being the sole source of evil.


The other point you make is that, as humans try to change things by themselves without waiting for God, they will do evil, and we're bound to do more evil than good. Among "good" things, you mentioned schools, which are a product of humanism. As you noted, plenty of reactionary countries still don't have schools for everybody. The reason why school is accessible to pretty much every child in our enlightened societies is because many people thought we had to do it, instead of waiting for some miracle.

About women, you put the reactionary Muslims and their burqas on the same level as the liberals and their red light districts. I would just say that not all liberals support red light districts (my party, the French Commie Party, opposes the prostitution surrounding the world cup; Sweden, at the initiative of the left, is punishing the customers for going to the prostitutes).
And even in your country, not everybody is either a Muslim reactionary or a liberal. Plenty of Dutch people, like yourself, both disagree with the burqas and with the Red Lights.

In the end, sure, not all political action will do good. Some ideologues love their ideas so much that nothing will stop them in their fanaticism. Some well-intentioned politicians will make mistakes that will have bad consequences (like Gandhi).

But in the end, collective action is the only thing that allows us to fight against the many forms of oppression and evil that are borne out of greed. Slavery is now out, it's a good thing. Murder, rape, pillage, happen much less often in organized societies than if we did nothing against it (which is why murder, rape and pillage are so frequent in war, when there much less order).

If we are looking at Europe in the past millenia, I think there hasn't been any time where the society was less "evil" than in the past 50 years or so. And it doesn't seem miraculous at all.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yeah, but Christians (at least some of them) still consider Jews to be the 'chosen people'. There lies the rub.

What Rub?

If you stripped out Jesus and followed his peace-love doctrine, most Jews would be happy if everyone was Christian.

What rub?

I think the problem may be the assumption you make about chosen people.

What specifically, do you think that means?

[Vesayen]

[SIZE=1]
But in the end christianity is the most beautifull religion in the world. It's the only faith where not the winner takes all. Where only those who are brave or saints can be save. That only those who are the best will be saved. But it's the worst religion as well, because it's the hardest thing for a man to accept that he's broken and corruped.

I liked your post very much(really) but i'd like to add an adendum... that is not true.

First off, Judaism has no hell and the after life is pretty vague, different Jews will tell you differently, but most will tell you a Jew who lived a good life and a non Jew who live a good live(good as in being good to your fellow man) will have the same fate, whatever that is.

In any event, NO ONE-and that includes Hitler, Staling and Polpot are tortured for eternity.

It is my understanding that in Islam, no one goes to hell forever, but the purpose of hell is to reform and everyone gets into heaven, eventually.

In eastern religions, anyone can recieve nervana and ascend out of the cycle of reincarnation if they work towards a better life.






Edit: Disagreeing twice.....

[SIZE=1]
A world that has lost it's faith in God will only have faith in mankind. In the end that's what brought us all evil. It's those religious fundamentalistics who believed that they themselve can bring eternal peace who do the damage. Not those who believe that not we but God will bring eternal peace.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao were people who thought that they themselves could establish the perfect world. But in the end it counts for all leaders, people in the world. If we try to do good, we still do evil.

And to your Hitler Mao and Stalin I would add Martin Luther King Jr, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and Alexander Flemming(discovered penicillin).

Now one of those on the list were religious and one was definatley religously inspired but they did their work because they wanted to make OUR world better OURSELVES.

I actually got into an argument with this over some of my relatives rescently.... one of them said that the problems in Israel will solve themselves(peacably) when the Meshiach(messiah) comes. I said no no no, don't wait for Meshiach... why depend on G-D? Wouldn't it be so much better if we honored G-D by solving our own problems, showing how much we value his values?

Waiting for G-D to fix our problems is a deafeatest attitude which will in the end make him unhappy. There are certain values he likes which he has made clear. Peace is one of them, charity is one of them, brotherly love is one, the wellbeing of your fellow man is one. How much more greatly could we honor him then by achieving these things for ourselves?

This is why Messianists of all religions well.... piss me off. Well yeah, it would be nice when/if Meshiach comes and fixes the worlds problems, but we could honor G-D so much more greatly if we did it ourselves-and of course it has the added benifit of having the problems fixed, just in case G-D is not real.

[Arrian]

There are some religious folks out there who get it (sorta). This is reflected in the phrase "God helps those who help themselves."

-Arrian

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Vesayen

I actually got into an argument with this over some of my relatives rescently.... one of them said that the problems in Israel will solve themselves(peacably) when the Meshiach(messiah) comes. I said no no no, don't wait for Meshiach... why depend on G-D? Wouldn't it be so much better if we honored G-D by solving our own problems, showing how much we value his values?

Waiting for G-D to fix our problems is a deafeatest attitude which will in the end make him unhappy. There are certain values he likes which he has made clear. Peace is one of them, charity is one of them, brotherly love is one, the wellbeing of your fellow man is one. How much more greatly could we honor him then by achieving these things for ourselves?

This is why Messianists of all religions well.... piss me off. Well yeah, it would be nice when/if Meshiach comes and fixes the worlds problems, but we could honor G-D so much more greatly if we did it ourselves-and of course it has the added benifit of having the problems fixed, just in case G-D is not real.

And it looks like many (also christian) sects and many of the more fundamentalist christian parishes are relying heavily on the belief, that g-d/jesus (or who else they believe in) will return to earth during their lifetime and that then it is them who will get chosen by him to lead a happy life in some kind of paradise, whereas all others who don´t adhere to this belief will experience g-ds wrath.

I think it´s a very strong factor why the last couple of years the reborn christian movement got popular (also because of the many problems world experiences at the moment [environment, teror and so on] it is very seductive to believe that you just have to have enough faith and everything gets solved by itself in your lifetime).

[Jon Miller]

Many Christians don't beleive in the 'standard' concept of 'hell' either. That concept was arrived at from misunderstandings of a couple of verses in the NT.

I would go so far as to say 'most', even including Catholics.

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

If you stripped out Jesus and followed his peace-love doctrine, most Jews would be happy if everyone was Christian.

If the message is good, imagine the messenger

Seriously though, how can you accept some of what Christ says, while rejecting the rest? Wouldn't he be trustworthy in whatever he says, including the claim that he was God?

[Ben Kenobi]

And it looks like many (also christian) sects and many of the more fundamentalist christian parishes are relying heavily on the belief, that g-d/jesus (or who else they believe in) will return to earth during their lifetime and that then it is them who will get chosen by him to lead a happy life in some kind of paradise, whereas all others who don´t adhere to this belief will experience g-ds wrath.

I'm not sure where you get this idea from that they believe such a thing would happen within the lifetime of the believer. Yes they do believe that there will be a judgement and the endtimes, but no one knows the hour or the day.

I think it´s a very strong factor why the last couple of years the reborn christian movement got popular (also because of the many problems world experiences at the moment [environment, teror and so on] it is very seductive to believe that you just have to have enough faith and everything gets solved by itself in your lifetime

Indeed, but I think you misattribute the source of comfort. You have a group here that believes there is a higher power in charge of things, and that no matter how bad things get here, that God will eventually return, and that their time here on earth is only a short amount of time before they die and go to heaven. There is a great deal of comfort in such confidence, and it helps many Christians keep things in perspective.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Vesayen
What Rub?

If you stripped out Jesus and followed his peace-love doctrine, most Jews would be happy if everyone was Christian.

What rub?

I think the problem may be the assumption you make about chosen people.

What specifically, do you think that means?

IMO, being the chosen people means that God will save you when the time comes. You have been chosen by God and that gets you in.

Yes, if you stripped out Jesus most Jews would be happy with that, but some Christians believe the only path to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

re: Protestantism & Enlightment - Setting in motion the chain of events to create the Enlightment and being responsible for the Enlightment are two vastly different things. The Reformation had the result of breaking the Vatican's power and allowing a bit more freedom for those in Protestant enclaves. Yes, that was important, but it didn't directly result in the Enlightment, which was a far more secular thing (a lot of the great Enlightment thinkers were not religious).

[Jon Miller]

All Christians should beleive that the only path to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Now I agree that some don't, but some don't beleive that Jesus was ressurected either.

Jon Miller
(basically, a lot of people claim to be Christian that hold very different views)

[Ben Kenobi]

This is reflected in the phrase "God helps those who help themselves.

There is a beautiful passage in Phillippians..

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

We cannot sustain ourselves, we need God to help us.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
All Christians should beleive that the only path to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Now I agree that some don't, but some don't beleive that Jesus was ressurected either.

Jon Miller
(basically, a lot of people claim to be Christian that hold very different views)

Yeah, that I understand, but does that mean that the Jews are not saved, since they don't believe in the divinity of Yeshua of Nazareth?