Questions about the Bible , I ask as I read

[Arrian]

Ok. I don't. Which is fine, because my judgement of what I think of as a fictional character isn't really important.

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Vesayen

Hebrew is not a dead language. It is "murder". They are wrong in the same way that saying 2 + 2 = 5. THis is not something open to interpretation or philosophical debate, it really IS murder.

Kings James bible is filled with mistranslations, some of them are probably intentional.

Most Christians, except for some strange Fundies, agree. The people who translated the KJV didn't have the access to as of good copies that we do today (one was found, and the Vatican has one, as well as having the number of manuscripts from the first few centuries AD).

As such, there are a few points where the KJV is slightly wrong (although, not such that you can't use it as the Holy Word of God). I prefer to use the KJV for it's language.

Jon Miller

[Robert]

Originally posted by Arrian


God is supposed to be better than us. Why is it wrong to hold him to a higher standard? Besides, we *do* judge our own criminals and such. But we can't judge God because...

We're not able to perfectly know what is good and what is evil because we lack much information. For a perfect judgement you need all information.

The circular logic doesn't bother you? We can't judge God because he's God! If he does something bad it's not actually bad because it's God's Will! Round and round we go...

-Arrian

I haven't said that.
I didn't say that we can't judge God bc he's God. I said we can't judge him because we don't have enough information.

UR:
"Thou shalt not kill" is in the original KJV.

This posts a lot of problems for Christians (basically fundamentalists) trying to resolve contradictions found in the bible. So some of them decided it would be much easier to nudge the commandment to "Thou shalt not murder."

If you don't hold the bible as inerrant this is not a problem.

The laws are for the people, not for the authorities.
The american laws say that people shouldn't kill. The authorities can execute (= kill) someone though, without being unlawfull.

In Holland it's against the law to have a gun. Policemen can carry guns though. Not as citizen, but because they're policemen.

It's not that difficult. It even works for jail. It's agains the dutch laws to take someone's freedom away. A judge is allowed to take someone's freedom and put someone in jail though. not as a citizen but as a judge.

Don't mix up laws for persons and laws for authorities.
And how can a judge be a good judge? By knowing enough facts. Why can we not judge God? Because we don't have enough information.

[Arrian]

I didn't say that we can't judge God bc he's God. I said we can't judge him because we don't have enough information.

But we have enough information to know that this god guy is, um, "God" that we should worship and who is all-powerful, all-knowing, etc? Because a book (which everyone seems to agree was written by fallible people) says so. But that same book that is the basis for the religion is insufficient to judge God.

How convenient.

-Arrian

[Vesayen]

Arrian. If you want to question the existance of G-D because you hate your parents for making you sit in church when you were a child, start a new thread, or feel free to also google the word "angst".

I'll make it even easier for you... one left click!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=angst

This thread has been incredibly respectful so far, take it someplace else.

[Arrian]

Actually my non-belief has nothing to do with angst, with my parents or otherwise. My parents aren't religious either.

If my posts irritate you, I'm sorry, but I was actually debating with Cybershy, not you.

-Arrian

[Vesayen]

You were not debating, you were mocking anyone who is religious.

[Ben Kenobi]

Arrian:

First off, it is murder. The KJV is wrong in this regard.

Secondly, why would God be murdering someone? That's like saying an executioner murders someone by applying the death penalty.

Third, God made men, we did not make ourselves. Why shouldn't he have the authority to unmake us if he so chooses?

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Vesayen
This thread has been incredibly respectful so far, take it someplace else.

I would contend that my previous participation in this thread was not respectful, which makes you, as usual, wrong again.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's an interesting quote from Martin Luther.

I wonder how he justified sentencing the Anabaptists who were pacifists to death.

[Arrian]

I was poking at Cyber's statement that one cannot judge God. I mocked that, yes. It makes no sense to me, and I attempted to illustrate why.

The rest is in your mind.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Arrian:

First off, it is murder. The KJV is wrong in this regard.

Secondly, why would God be murdering someone? That's like saying an executioner murders someone by applying the death penalty.

Third, God made men, we did not make ourselves. Why shouldn't he have the authority to unmake us if he so chooses?

Huh? I wasn't a party to the "murder" or "kill" debate, as far as I recall. It makes a lot of sense if it's "murder" actually. I'll go with that.

-Arrian, puzzled.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Arrian


But we have enough information to know that this god guy is, um, "God" that we should worship and who is all-powerful, all-knowing, etc? Because a book (which everyone seems to agree was written by fallible people) says so. But that same book that is the basis for the religion is insufficient to judge God.

How convenient.

-Arrian

You shouldn't worship him because the Bible says so. The only reason why you should is because you believe in him and have faith in him.

Eventhough the Bible has been written by fallable people it comes with a pretty accurate diagnostic about our problems here on earth: namely that we can't seperate good from evil while we all insist on doing so.

Besides that it tells me that we, humans, cannot fix it ourselves but need help. (which is completely different then any other religion where humans have to help themselves and are supposed to be able to do that)

Further it comes with pretty accurate prophecies about the re-establishing of Israel, the return of the Jews, the world problem of Jerusalem in our days, etc. etc.

If all I read in the ancient old Bible is so true, then I have faith in God. Not because the Bible tells me so, but because I see that the Bible is trustworthy. Did you ever compare the Bible to other books of those time? Eventhough much stories are about the same subjects the Bible is a very mature book. The Bible doesn't know 10.000 year old perfect kings with divine powers. It doesn't contian arguing gods who are disturbed by the sound of men. In the Bible the main characters are fallable people. The most important Biblical characters, like Abraham, Moses, David, Peter, Paul, are all fallable men. They don't try to hide that. That's unheard of in ancient literature.

I have faith in the Bible
But I have more faith in God, since even with the help of the Bible I can't help myself. (and that's what seperates Judaism from christianity, since the Jews believe they can live good with help from the Bible, christians believe that we still can't, not because the Bible is not good enough, but because we, humans, are broken by default.)

[Arrian]

Good answer. Obviously I lack your faith, but I can respect that answer. I don't find the Bible convincing, but I will agree that it is a remarkable piece (or collection of) literature.

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

Jews from all sects except a few(the “Lebavich” come to mind… some of them think the Meshiach came… and went) will tell you the Meshiach need not be a person, it could be a group or even a concept.

If the Torah prophecies Jesus, everything we need to know about the prophecy needs to be in that same text, or else it is not a very useful prophecy, now is it? As I said before in response to Jon Miller…. the New Testament was written after the Torah, a considerable time after and if it is not divinely inspired, that means that the author could of looked back and written accordingly… that includes concepts about satan.

First off, if the Jews who have the Torah cannot agree among themselves on the simple question of whether the Messiah is a person or some nebulous 'concept' then how could it be possible to establish that a specific person is the Messiah?

The common assumption that must be made is that the Messiah is going to be a person, otherwise the rest of this is pointless.

To me this demonstrates the insufficiency of the view that the Messiah is a concept and not a person, I see no evidence for that view from the Torah and it seems a modern invention. And I know there are Jews who agree with me here.

To vague, to unspecific. If this is a prophecy it is so unspecific that I could think of dozens of historical events which fit just as equally well and quite a few which fit much better.

In crushing death once and for all? Well I think the resurrection is the fulfillment of this prophecy, I'd be curious to know which other times you feel would make a better fit, seeing as your interpretation simply says the snake is a snake.

I would not agree though. His creation is not “evil”. You see evil as an attribute. I see evil as a lack of apathy and ignorance, not any sort of real active “lets be evil”. I would not say the world is evil, so I do not see any problem.

And I see plenty of active evil committed not through ignorance or apathy, but through active desire.

That was convoluted, I hope it made sense.

I agree that our evil cannot be attributed to god, but I also believe that our good is actually good, just like our evil is actually evil, neither are morally neutral.

Point of view. In a court of law, a please bargain is not admissible if the defendant has been the subject of coercion. It is not fair for the person who makes the rules and the stimulus to punish you for following the stimulus provided. This one really could go either way though, it really is a matter of opinion, not really logic or faith.

If we have free will, then we are accountable for our own actions. Otherwise, it makes no sense to have a court.

Yes but the emphasis for you is on G-D, not the inherent badness of the act itself.

Not sure why you think that. God is part of it yes, but certainly not more of it then understanding that what you have done is wrong.

It is a BIG divide heh . Christians do *NOT* see themselves as oblidged to follow the same laws. You have different laws. You threw our laws out and made your own.

With regards to Kosher, and the Sabbath, and the dates of your festivals, yes. With regards to the entire law handed down to Moses? No. We follow the same ethical strictures even as our traditions are different.

Prohibitions on slavery is another huge one…. a Jew can never hold another Jew as a slave which for extension to the gentiles mean no one should keep their countrymen as slaves and even then, even slavery of foreigners is never permanent in Judaism.

Not sure if you want to bring this up, considering that it was Christians who banned slavery along the same principles.

Passover does NOT overlap with Easter in any way besides the time of the year. Passover is about the exodus from Egypt. Easter is about the resurrection of Jesus. Sukot is about wandering in the dessert after the exodus, it also might not be appropriate for gentiles.

So it is entirely coincidental that Easter and Pesach overlap? I'm sorry I don't buy that. There is a real connection between the two.