Questions about the Bible , I ask as I read

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Vesayen


The Torah does not prophecise Jesus. The Torah alone does not give enough context or details to prophecise Jesus.

Some of the lines quoted are impossible(the moabites are already gone) or nonsensical(see the covenant posts).

Mathew 1 is not in the Torah. You can't use outside information written after a text to say "Well the text really meant this!"

when the original claim is

"The text, says this".

If the claim is that the TORAH prophecises Jesus, you can not use a later text which changes the context of the Torah and changes details, till magically, a prophecy suddenly appears.



I had always thought most Christians thought Jesus threw out the law. "I am the way" etc.

-my emphasis added

Matthew and indeed the entire "new testament" does not change any context or details of the torah or any other scriptural canon. The approach of the writers was basically to describe later events with commentary that relates them to the earlier writings with absolutely no suggestion that the earlier writings were in any way in error. they also wrote a lot of commentary that would provide new interpretations based on an understanding that all of the text old and new was perfect as written.

It is islam which came up with the idea that the torah and other earlier writings had been "corrupted" and as such were not reliable as scripture.

[Jon Miller]

hmm?

The prophecy related to progeny of David/Judah. How does anything in Mathew affect the prophecy? Mathew is totally independent of the prophecy, Mathew only shows that that prophecy is fulfilled by Jesus (as well as millions (billions?) of others).

Jon Miller

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
hmm?

The prophecy related to progeny of David/Judah. How does anything in Mathew affect the prophecy? Mathew is totally independent of the prophecy, Mathew only shows that that prophecy is fulfilled by Jesus (as well as millions (billions?) of others).

Jon Miller

If this was directed at my post could you quote the most relevant bit? I didn't mean to suggest that matthew is part of the prophecy. I was trying to explain to ves how matthew and the new testament in general do not claim to change details or context of the old testament.

I suppose it's possible that something in my post was poorly written or that you are addressing something else.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Do you know what he is talking about in Mathew 1?

I can tell that he doesn't.

JM

I have read it, I've read the entire Christian bible. I don't recall.

It has no relevance.

Imagine a discussion about boat building and someone says "Well have you read Bob's Ultimate Guide to Yack Calling? No? Well I guess you don't know anything about building boats."

We were analyzing the Torah and a claim that a specific message lays within the Torah. No outside source is needed, in fact an outside source is inappropriate because it negates the claim. The claim is that there is a prophecy in the Torah.

If it is there it must be visible by itself because any text which comes after, is suspect.

Christian texts were written later and if they were not divinely inspired, perhaps some tricky or clever individual looked back at the Torah and wrote accordingly? Christian texts are only admissible in this instance if we are certain they are divinely inspired and we are not certain of that.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Geronimo


If this was directed at my post could you quote the most relevant bit? I didn't mean to suggest that matthew is part of the prophecy. I was trying to explain to ves how matthew and the new testament in general do not claim to change details or context of the old testament.

I suppose it's possible that something in my post was poorly written or that you are addressing something else.

I was refreing to an early post.

Or XPost!

JM

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Vesayen
Christian texts are only admissible in this instance if we are certain they are divinely inspired and we are not certain of that.

Christians are certain. That's the whole point of faith.

[Vesayen]

The claim we were discussing for 3 and a half to 4 pages was the claim that the Torah has a prophecy of Jesus's coming-not that Christians know it by faith.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Vesayen
The claim we were discussing for 3 and a half to 4 pages was the claim that the Torah has a prophecy of Jesus's coming-not that Christians know it by faith.

That's where you're wrong. For them, it's not "The Torah". It's not a scripture from another religion. They consider it as their scripture (even though it happens some other religions consider it theirs as well), and as such, they view it with a Christian mindset.

Don't forget. You are dealing with people who couldn't care less about the Torah (except as a matter of intellectual curiosity), but who care about the Old Testament.
Even though the text is pretty much the same, it makes a world of difference, because religious truth is in the eye of the beholder. As often with the human mind, the object is of little significance, but the subjective interpretation is essential.

[Ben Kenobi]

I see no reason to write my own response on this one, someone else already did perfectly. See proteus’s post. Then again…. this “problem” has nothing to do with prophesizing Jesus. The snake(satan) could not be the source of evil…. It could just be a snake, like Jews have believed since BEFORE Christianity arrived and believed since.

It has to do with the interpretation of the passage. The reason why you see the two as unconnected is really the fundamental part of the problem. Christ fulfills the passage because the snake is Satan, else the prophecy makes no sense whatsoever when referring to Christ. The fact that this passage is crucial to the understanding of how evil enters the world I think merits further discussion then what you say here saying this is just a snake.

Perhaps reform Jews believe this, but Reform Jews are the ones who also say there is no 'person' as the Messiah, which makes this whole discussion rather pointless.

You did not answer my question. How do you know it is Jesus?

I just explained it to you. Christ rose from the dead, hence defeating the power of death over himself, and he offers that same choice to us.

This is how Christ fulfills that prophecy that he shall crush the heel, his death crushes Satan.

I need you to define evil again. On the defenition I would use for evil… I think the answer is mostly explainable, a lack of empathy. All evil is from a lack of empathy for other living beings. Not so much hatred, as misunderstanding, or because of how they were raised, or the conditions they live in do not permit the creation of empathy. Really, people are evil because they were not hugged enough as children(etc). I am not confident I am correct about this.

The same evil that leads men to build gas chambers to kill other people. This is the evil to which I speak.

A distinction between the cosmos and earth is not evil, afterall, G-D made the divide, it can not be inherently evil…..

Which is part of the problem. We know God is not evil, yet his creation is evil. So how can we explain the introduction of evil on the world. Genesis does a very good job of it through the snake/serpent tempting man, who has the free will to act against God.

He makes the river, the river bank and us. He puts us on the river bank knowing we will hop in. He gives us compulsions to hop in and no clear, logical reason not to. He as good as throws us in in the Christian ideology.

Yet the choice is still our own to jump.

If you harmed another person, apologizing and making restitution is part of it. If to G-D by ignoring a ritual observance to G-D AND to yourself, because you realize it is wrong and something you should not do. There is a huge difference here between Jews and Christians. You see G-D as a necessary tool, the entire focus, who without you can not be “forgiven” of sins…

Partially true, but it is not without the other two. You must be sincerely committed to the fact that what you have done is wrong, and you must also be willing to make tangible restitution to those who you have hurt. Without the other two, it doesn't make sense to go to God and ask for forgiveness since you yourself have not repented.

My knowledge of the Christian bible is not good enough that I would call myself knowledgeable about it though. I have read Romans though.

Take it for what you will. If you have the time read it through. Plenty of good things there.

The law only applies to Jews, non Jews who know it, are under no obligation of observance. This is not “Ignorance of the law IS a defense”, this really is, they are under no obligation, non whatsoever to observe-it is not for them.

Yes they are not responsible to the law, but contrary to the fact that those who are aware of the law are obliged to follow the law. Ignorance is only a defense so long as ignorance exists, and even those who are ignorant still have some understanding through their conscience.

It is a BIG divide heh . Christians do *NOT* see themselves as oblidged to follow the same laws. You have different laws. You threw our laws out and made your own.

Kosher yes is one difference. Day of the Sabbath is another, moving from Saturday to Sunday.

A few overlap, most don’t. Where is Kashrut(kosher), where is Shabat, where are the observances of the yom tovim-the big holidays, Yom Kipur, Simach Torah, Smini Atzeret, Pessach and Sukot?

We have our feasts and festivals apart from the custom. Pesach is the oldest and still can be seen in Easter, we take quite a bit of inspiration from the Hebrews.

I would ask, where are your ten commandments? Where is your mosaic code? It is a really good question as to the extent to which Christianity reflects the teachings of the Torah, whereas there are plenty of differences the similarities are striking.

I really do not like saying this, but worship of Jesus is idolatry in the Jewish mind. Most Jews do not really like saying this… some may disagree, most don’t. We don’t want to be rude so we keep that to ourselves. I do not want to be rude, but well, worship of a man is idolatry in a Jewish mind and that alone is enough to blow apart all similarity in the “law” between the 2 groups.

Why do you think they crucified him in the first place! I'd rather take a honest Jew who sees Christ as an imposter claiming to be God, and thus deserving of his reward then 10 people who see Christ as a worthy prophet to whom we ought to follow even though he is just a man.

The important thing here is what did Christ claim to be. If he indeed claimed to be God, then we have two choices. Either he is as you say here an imposter a fake and thus worse then any prophet or he is truly God.

Not being an isolator is the most important ritual law…. and it is not even entirely a ritual law, there are sound, solid reasons why idolatry is bad for an individual and society. You have a fundamentally different view on G-D and your own religion

No argument here.

Trying to remain on task… well if you are saying that this relationship expands… well this relationship has nothing to do with the covenant of the Jews and G-D. It is between the Jews descendants, not, non Jews.

I would argue it does. We are the annoying little brother that goes out and bothers others about their Christ who died and came back again. We have a great debt which will never be repayed and have no basis for our own faith without Israel.

There are sound, important reasons why Jews do not believe in proselytizing.

Which is why I think we were called to go out and make disciples. For starters there are not very many Jews in the world.

It does not say all nations will be formed through you. It says those who bless you will be blessed and he says he will be the father of a great nation. There is absolutely no mention of a worldly redemption in the covenant.

Let's read that once more.

Genesis 18:18-9

Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.

All nations will be blessed through him. Yet how can all nations have known of Abraham, unless this is to be fulfilled through a descendent of Abraham?

We can not take the Torah, combine it with the new testament and say “Ah, well if we take the secret decoder ring from the new testament it shows us the prophecy in the old…” well its not much of a prophecy then, not much of a useful one, or even an accurate one now is it? We can not use the new testament to give context or details to a supposed prophecy in the Torah. If the supposed prophecy does not point out Jesus within its own text, then it does not point him out in any useful, or accurate way, in fact it would seem more likely to say that the prophecy is not real….

How would the Torah speak of Christ when Christ has not became man? It can hint of him, but it could not say, yes Christ is the fulfillment of this prophecy because when Moses wroth them Christ had not yet come. This is why you require the Old and the New together to assess the claims of Christ, whereas the Torah has the prophecies, it cannot offer Christ.

The world is necessary for the continuation of the promise. It explains an endless series of descendants.

Does eternal life break the series?

He can never beat the Moabites. The Moabites have been dead for thousands of years, the Jews destroyed them at the command of G-D.

Yet even today we see the Jews struggling with the nations among them.

So this is not a description of Jesus, this is Jacob’s blessing to Judah. Lets suppose he is describing Jesus. “until he comes to whom it[the rulers staff] belongs and the obedience of nations is his].” Jesus has never ruled any country. I am ADAMANT about being truthful even when it harms my point of view. This could be interpreted loosely as prophesizing the second coming of Jesus, if he rules over all nations forever, after he begins his rule… but he never began his rule, now did he? Jesus was a descendant of Judah, as far as I recall

Yes he has not yet begun his rule over the nations. That will not happen until he returns.

What evidence that Jesus is born from the tribe of Judah?

Matthew 1 and Luke also have geneologies of Christ going through Judah.

Even it he is… that’s not enough. Most Jews today are from the tribe of Judah and if a Jew is the Meshiach, statistically he will probably be from Judah… besides the fact he is supposed to be a descendant of King David(also Judah).

Granted , however the Torah is not the only source of Messianic prophecies. After all, isn't Elijah supposed to come first? Don't you keep a chair and a door open at Pesach?

Bull? That’s like saying Nostrodamus’s prophecies only work if you add Super-Nostra-Cliff Notes, written 1200 years later by a different author.

That's what death and resurrection will do. If Nostradamus were to die and come back I should think we'd be hearing about how he fulfills the old testament propecies made so long ago in our Super Cliff Notes.

How useful is a prophecy if the context is not inside of it? How likely is it to be true? More so…. Well, the new testament was written in response to the Torah, how easy is it then to say “Oh by the way, that old passage, add the following lines in for context…”. Er…. Well that’s not a prophecy. That means the REAL prophecy is in the New Testament, since without the context it adds there is no prophecy in the Torah.

True, however, I think we have tried to hash out the context of the prophecies in order to establish characteristics of the Messiah.

I think this might be a compromise we could both agree on. That for you, for some of the "prophecy" to be true or accurate, it needs context and details only given in the new testament-you seem to agree at least because you want to use the new testament as evidence.

It's essential to proving the claim that Christ fulfilled these prophecies, because these documents speak of what Christ does, whereas the Torah, as a prophecy only predicts what the Messiah will be like, without saying who fulfills it because it hasn't happened yet.

I am not submitting information from the Gospels to judge a prophecy in the torah-which I said you can not do… and you can not do it. I am submitting information from the gospel, to judge another part of the Gospel. The mention of Jesus and his parentage, is in the gospels.

Yet you are applying this to the prophecy in the Torah asking the specific question of how can he be of the tribe of Judah since he is not the son of Joseph?

You can't have it both ways. That admission right there is generally Christian testimony that Christ is the Son of God.

What do you mean we will really have no choice but to listen to him? Wrong. What I said is when the Meshiach comes, we will all choose to acknowledge him because it will be so apparent. We will make a choice.

At that point we have made our decision and we can't go and say, hey dude. Way to come back. I knew you'd come through in the end.

Rather disingenous no?

Christ will read our hearts and judge what is there, not our words on Judgement Day.

This passage does not necessarily refer to the Meshiach, it could just refer to some prophet who will come, or prophets in general. It is little different then saying “You will not eat X”.

It does NOT sound like Christ. Christ is not like “me”, is he even remotely similar to any prophet who came before, in scope, in details?

How many prophets of Israel are like God in that aspect? They are all flawed men, even Elijah ran away and hid.

Jews do not see him as applying a higher standard of conduct. We see it as a lower one, hardly a standard of conduct at all…. We see it as idolatry which really is the cardinal sin of Judaism-it is so bad that it is banned even for non Jews, in fact it is the only ritual observance G-D wants of non Jews… and there are good arguments which expand it from a ritual observance to a moral one, with actual societal effects.

What do you make of the sermon on the mount in condemning evil thoughts rather then simply actions? Isn't that an extension of the law built up upon the basis of the old law?

I never said signs, I never even said miracles. No sign of Jonah, or maybe there is, who knows. Perhaps the individual or group involved possesses such enormous wisdom that he persuades the whole world? Laser light shows need not be a part of it, though maybe they will be, who knows.

Why Jonah? Why does Christ pick on him and not Malachi? What about Jonah sets him apart from all the other prophets?

[Vesayen]

Going to sleep soon and my work week starts again tommorow... i'll get back to this post in about 18 hours heh.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's where you're wrong. For them, it's not "The Torah". It's not a scripture from another religion. They consider it as their scripture (even though it happens some other religions consider it theirs as well), and as such, they view it with a Christian mindset.

As well we are aware that there is a written and an oral Torah, we just use the written Torah that was the one the Jews themselves used in the Septuagint. The issue of what should comprise the old testament sees Christians very concerned about the issue, what do we see as accurate from the Jewish standpoint? This is always the first question. They don't make up books from whole cloth.

Don't forget. You are dealing with people who couldn't care less about the Torah (except as a matter of intellectual curiosity), but who care about the Old Testament.

Depends. All throughout I've had to refrain from citing outside of those first five books. I don't know if that counts as 'not caring'.

Even though the text is pretty much the same, it makes a world of difference, because religious truth is in the eye of the beholder. As often with the human mind, the object is of little significance, but the subjective interpretation is essential.

This is a family discussion over what we share in common to be truthful. I should think that if neither one of us cared for the other's opinion that we would see much more hostility.

[Vesayen]

I see no reason to write my own response on this one, someone else already did perfectly. See proteus’s post. Then again…. this “problem” has nothing to do with prophesizing Jesus. The snake(satan) could not be the source of evil…. It could just be a snake, like Jews have believed since BEFORE Christianity arrived and believed since.

It has to do with the interpretation of the passage. The reason why you see the two as unconnected is really the fundamental part of the problem. Christ fulfills the passage because the snake is Satan, else the prophecy makes no sense whatsoever when referring to Christ. The fact that this passage is crucial to the understanding of how evil enters the world I think merits further discussion then what you say here saying this is just a snake.

Perhaps reform Jews believe this, but Reform Jews are the ones who also say there is no 'person' as the Messiah, which makes this whole discussion rather pointless.

Jews from all sects except a few(the “Lebavich” come to mind… some of them think the Meshiach came… and went) will tell you the Meshiach need not be a person, it could be a group or even a concept.

If the Torah prophecies Jesus, everything we need to know about the prophecy needs to be in that same text, or else it is not a very useful prophecy, now is it? As I said before in response to Jon Miller…. the New Testament was written after the Torah, a considerable time after and if it is not divinely inspired, that means that the author could of looked back and written accordingly… that includes concepts about satan.

You did not answer my question. How do you know it is Jesus?

I just explained it to you. Christ rose from the dead, hence defeating the power of death over himself, and he offers that same choice to us.

This is how Christ fulfills that prophecy that he shall crush the heel, his death crushes Satan.

To vague, to unspecific. If this is a prophecy it is so unspecific that I could think of dozens of historical events which fit just as equally well and quite a few which fit much better.

I need you to define evil again. On the defenition I would use for evil… I think the answer is mostly explainable, a lack of empathy. All evil is from a lack of empathy for other living beings. Not so much hatred, as misunderstanding, or because of how they were raised, or the conditions they live in do not permit the creation of empathy. Really, people are evil because they were not hugged enough as children(etc). I am not confident I am correct about this.

The same evil that leads men to build gas chambers to kill other people. This is the evil to which I speak.

Then I would stick with my answer that evil is the result of apathy and ignorance, though I am not confident of that view.

A distinction between the cosmos and earth is not evil, afterall, G-D made the divide, it can not be inherently evil…..

Which is part of the problem. We know God is not evil, yet his creation is evil. So how can we explain the introduction of evil on the world. Genesis does a very good job of it through the snake/serpent tempting man, who has the free will to act against God.

I would not agree though. His creation is not “evil”. You see evil as an attribute. I see evil as a lack of apathy and ignorance, not any sort of real active “lets be evil”. I would not say the world is evil, so I do not see any problem.

Your problem is that G-D is “good”, which I would agree with. You also believe that “evil” exists as a thing in the world. Evil is not a thing, it is not a creation, it is a mindset in men which results in their backgrounds and experiences in life, this is not a creation of G-D any more then our good deeds are the creation of G-D, it is just a result of free will. What you would call “evil” I would say is morally neutral.

That was convoluted, I hope it made sense.

He makes the river, the river bank and us. He puts us on the river bank knowing we will hop in. He gives us compulsions to hop in and no clear, logical reason not to. He as good as throws us in in the Christian ideology.

Yet the choice is still our own to jump.

Point of view. In a court of law, a please bargain is not admissible if the defendant has been the subject of coercion. It is not fair for the person who makes the rules and the stimulus to punish you for following the stimulus provided. This one really could go either way though, it really is a matter of opinion, not really logic or faith.

If you harmed another person, apologizing and making restitution is part of it. If to G-D by ignoring a ritual observance to G-D AND to yourself, because you realize it is wrong and something you should not do. There is a huge difference here between Jews and Christians. You see G-D as a necessary tool, the entire focus, who without you can not be “forgiven” of sins…

Partially true, but it is not without the other two. You must be sincerely committed to the fact that what you have done is wrong, and you must also be willing to make tangible restitution to those who you have hurt. Without the other two, it doesn't make sense to go to God and ask for forgiveness since you yourself have not repented.

Yes but the emphasis for you is on G-D, not the inherent badness of the act itself.

My knowledge of the Christian bible is not good enough that I would call myself knowledgeable about it though. I have read Romans though.

Take it for what you will. If you have the time read it through. Plenty of good things there.

I’m busy reading a really good book now… its called Roma Eterna, the premess is that the Jews never successfully left Egypt and as a result the Christian religion never came about and the Roman Empire never fell. Really good book, but I just started it. I may read the Christian bible eventually again, but not any time soon.

The law only applies to Jews, non Jews who know it, are under no obligation of observance. This is not “Ignorance of the law IS a defense”, this really is, they are under no obligation, non whatsoever to observe-it is not for them.

Yes they are not responsible to the law, but contrary to the fact that those who are aware of the law are obliged to follow the law. Ignorance is only a defense so long as ignorance exists, and even those who are ignorant still have some understanding through their conscience.

The idea of “ignorance of the law is not a defense” is a legal distinction common in our society. It is not necessarily good or bad, it is a neutral concept. I said that it is NOT that “ignorance of the law IS a defense”, because there is nothing to defend against, there is no transgression for non Jews to commit besides “be good to your neighbor”.

It is a BIG divide heh . Christians do *NOT* see themselves as oblidged to follow the same laws. You have different laws. You threw our laws out and made your own.

Kosher yes is one difference. Day of the Sabbath is another, moving from Saturday to Sunday.

There are *a lot* of things which you are banned to do on Shabat. Christians do these things on Sunday. Kashrut is hugely important to Judaism, it is the single most important set of ritual laws in the Torah(I’d place it on a tie with no idolatry), more important then prohibitions on sorcery, sodomy or bestiality. The “high holidays” are ignored. Prohibitions on slavery is another huge one…. a Jew can never hold another Jew as a slave which for extension to the gentiles mean no one should keep their countrymen as slaves and even then, even slavery of foreigners is never permanent in Judaism. Monetary crimes can never result in capital punishment. In ancient Israel sacrifices were made once a year in the Temple for the well being of every other nation in the world, even those who Israel was at war at. The list goes on and on and on…. I could go at it for hours. Christianity threw out the “Law”.

A few overlap, most don’t. Where is Kashrut(kosher), where is Shabat, where are the observances of the yom tovim-the big holidays, Yom Kipur, Simach Torah, Smini Atzeret, Pessach and Sukot?

We have our feasts and festivals apart from the custom. Pesach is the oldest and still can be seen in Easter, we take quite a bit of inspiration from the Hebrews.

Passover does NOT overlap with Easter in any way besides the time of the year. Passover is about the exodus from Egypt. Easter is about the resurrection of Jesus. Sukot is about wandering in the dessert after the exodus, it also might not be appropriate for gentiles.

((part 2 in second post))

[Vesayen]

Passover might not be appropriate for gentiles who want to honor the G-D of Israel. Simchas Torah and Smini Atzeret(I can’t spell transliteration for crap, sorry) definitely should, both of those holidays have to do with the giving of the Torah. Yom Kippur definitely should be observed, it is about asking for forgiveness for sins but more importantly promising to refrain from doing them in the future.

Some Jews argue endlessly about which of the 5 “Yom Tovim” or high holidays are the most important and people make good arguments for each of them being the most important….. but Christianity threw all of them out.

I would ask, where are your ten commandments? Where is your mosaic code? It is a really good question as to the extent to which Christianity reflects the teachings of the Torah, whereas there are plenty of differences the similarities are striking.
The emphasis on the Ten Commandments in Christianity is far, far, far more pronounced then in Judaism. Obviously they are important, but not nearly as much emphasis goes on them in Judaism as in Christianity.

Christianity does not reflect the teachings of the Torah…. I would explain why but well, that’s a huge topic on its own, new thread if you want but not this one, its too huge a topic.

The similarities are not striking. Every advanced society has a code of ethics which at its base is a message of respecting the rights of others, these ideas predate both Christianity and Judaism and are part of the foundation for an advanced society.

I really do not like saying this, but worship of Jesus is idolatry in the Jewish mind. Most Jews do not really like saying this… some may disagree, most don’t. We don’t want to be rude so we keep that to ourselves. I do not want to be rude, but well, worship of a man is idolatry in a Jewish mind and that alone is enough to blow apart all similarity in the “law” between the 2 groups.

Why do you think they crucified him in the first place! I'd rather take a honest Jew who sees Christ as an imposter claiming to be God, and thus deserving of his reward then 10 people who see Christ as a worthy prophet to whom we ought to follow even though he is just a man.

The important thing here is what did Christ claim to be. If he indeed claimed to be God, then we have two choices. Either he is as you say here an imposter a fake and thus worse then any prophet or he is truly God.

The Romans crucified him, not the Jews. The punishment prescribed for an idolator in the Torah is stoning. It is questionable if the Jews even practiced capital punishment at the time because they were not in control of the country. I don’t have much to comment on the rest.

Trying to remain on task… well if you are saying that this relationship expands… well this relationship has nothing to do with the covenant of the Jews and G-D. It is between the Jews descendants, not, non Jews.

I would argue it does. We are the annoying little brother that goes out and bothers others about their Christ who died and came back again. We have a great debt which will never be repayed and have no basis for our own faith without Israel.

What can I say? G-D never said anything about the detail of his relationship with non Jews. I could not tell you what it is. You’d have to ask G-D.

There are sound, important reasons why Jews do not believe in proselytizing.

Which is why I think we were called to go out and make disciples. For starters there are not very many Jews in the world.

The apostles, for fairly obvious reasons, in the Jewish mindset, were not very good Jews, so if you are saying that Jews make good proselytizers because they don’t like to do it… I am not sure if that holds, because well, they were bad Jews. More then that, if you are saying Jews make good proselytizers because they are hesitant…. I’ve read the gospels, they do not seem very hesitant to me, Paul in particular seems positively giddy.

All nations will be blessed through him. Yet how can all nations have known of Abraham, unless this is to be fulfilled through a descendent of Abraham?

I think you would be hard pressed to go ANYWHERE in the world where they have electricity today and find a group of people who have not heard of Jews. Seems the entire world knows who Jews are…. somehow this happened without Jesus coming again. Jews were widely known in much of the world long before Jesus’s birth.

We can not take the Torah, combine it with the new testament and say “Ah, well if we take the secret decoder ring from the new testament it shows us the prophecy in the old…” well its not much of a prophecy then, not much of a useful one, or even an accurate one now is it? We can not use the new testament to give context or details to a supposed prophecy in the Torah. If the supposed prophecy does not point out Jesus within its own text, then it does not point him out in any useful, or accurate way, in fact it would seem more likely to say that the prophecy is not real….

Then it is so vague as to be useless and fairly questionable…..

The world is necessary for the continuation of the promise. It explains an endless series of descendants.

Does eternal life break the series?

You betcha. The covenant only talks about this world and is promised to continue through children. No new children, no continuation of the covenant. More importantly one of the more important commandments is the one of circumcision which is an reaffirmation of the covenant… no new children means this reaffirmation can not be done. The extended beliefs of Judaism holds that Passover is one of the holidays which is commanded to be observed even in the era of the Meshiach, so that new children do not forget and they can remember when all of Israel stood at Sinai. This implies earthly descendants forever. Judaism is chock full of similar examples. G-D also promised to never destroy the world in Genesis or to wipe our mankind and with that promise, I see little reason why we would magically stop having children…..

He can never beat the Moabites. The Moabites have been dead for thousands of years, the Jews destroyed them at the command of G-D.

Yet even today we see the Jews struggling with the nations among them.

The “prophecy” does not say nations, it says Moabites(I really think this one is probably the most questionable of all of the passages you picked… it just seems very much out of context.). The Moabites are long, long dead.

Israel is doing fantastic with the nations around it.

Peace has been established with Egypt and Jordan and will likely be a permanent peace.

I could see a future towards the end of my own life where Egypt and Israel become very, very good friends, possibly Jordan as well(a bit more questionable). Egypt is progressing economically and economic prosperity for the masses means less children and less religious fundamentalism. A prospering neighboring democracy could be very good friends with another prospering neighboring democracy, especially when they share a long border.

Israel’s neighbors to the north are toast if they keep this up-Israel buzzed the presidents house in Syria about a week and a half ago with jets. The more distant countries are not a concern.

What evidence that Jesus is born from the tribe of Judah?

Well there we go.

Even it he is… that’s not enough. Most Jews today are from the tribe of Judah and if a Jew is the Meshiach, statistically he will probably be from Judah… besides the fact he is supposed to be a descendant of King David(also Judah).

Granted , however the Torah is not the only source of Messianic prophecies. After all, isn't Elijah supposed to come first? Don't you keep a chair and a door open at Pesach?

That’s a different thing altogether, not really related to the coming of Meshiach(not really….)

Bull? That’s like saying Nostrodamus’s prophecies only work if you add Super-Nostra-Cliff Notes, written 1200 years later by a different author.

That's what death and resurrection will do. If Nostradamus were to die and come back I should think we'd be hearing about how he fulfills the old testament propecies made so long ago in our Super Cliff Notes.

The Super-Nostra-Cliff Notes in my example are not written by the same author, but in fact by someone who stands to profit economically or politically by exploiting the supposed prophecies of Nostradamus to his benefit. What made it into the New Testament well…. Seems pretty arbitrary, what was popular made the cut and what was not, did not.

How useful is a prophecy if the context is not inside of it? How likely is it to be true? More so…. Well, the new testament was written in response to the Torah, how easy is it then to say “Oh by the way, that old passage, add the following lines in for context…”. Er…. Well that’s not a prophecy. That means the REAL prophecy is in the New Testament, since without the context it adds there is no prophecy in the Torah.

True, however, I think we have tried to hash out the context of the prophecies in order to establish characteristics of the Messiah.

Maybe.

I think this might be a compromise we could both agree on. That for you, for some of the "prophecy" to be true or accurate, it needs context and details only given in the new testament-you seem to agree at least because you want to use the new testament as evidence.

It's essential to proving the claim that Christ fulfilled these prophecies, because these documents speak of what Christ does, whereas the Torah, as a prophecy only predicts what the Messiah will be like, without saying who fulfills it because it hasn't happened yet.

Except for that to be true, the new testament needs to be accepted as true, which is either a matter of proof, or faith. That means the “prophecies” are only prophecies to those who already believe in them….. not all that useful then, are they?

I am not submitting information from the Gospels to judge a prophecy in the torah-which I said you can not do… and you can not do it. I am submitting information from the gospel, to judge another part of the Gospel. The mention of Jesus and his parentage, is in the gospels.

Yet you are applying this to the prophecy in the Torah asking the specific question of how can he be of the tribe of Judah since he is not the son of Joseph?

You can't have it both ways. That admission right there is generally Christian testimony that Christ is the Son of God.

I am not having it both ways. I said we can not use information from the new testament as proof of the prophecy. However we can use information from the new testament to show it does not fit because if it does not fit with the new testament then surely it is NOT a prophecy of Jesus.

If Jesus is the son of G-D, he is not a member of the tribe of Judah and thus this “prophecy” can not be describing him.

This passage does not necessarily refer to the Meshiach, it could just refer to some prophet who will come, or prophets in general. It is little different then saying “You will not eat X”.

It does NOT sound like Christ. Christ is not like “me”, is he even remotely similar to any prophet who came before, in scope, in details?

How many prophets of Israel are like God in that aspect? They are all flawed men, even Elijah ran away and hid.

My point exactly. No prophets of Israel are like G-D, yet whoever this prophet(if it is only 1, or even if it is not) is “like me”. No prophet is like G-D, so can’t be Jesus because you claim Jesus is like G-D. Heck besides the “like me” line…. Think about the word prophet himself. In Judaism, prophets are whole human, they are not in any way divine… an individual who IS divine, would not fit this description, he is not a prophet, he is something else.

Jews do not see him as applying a higher standard of conduct. We see it as a lower one, hardly a standard of conduct at all…. We see it as idolatry which really is the cardinal sin of Judaism-it is so bad that it is banned even for non Jews, in fact it is the only ritual observance G-D wants of non Jews… and there are good arguments which expand it from a ritual observance to a moral one, with actual societal effects.

What do you make of the sermon on the mount in condemning evil thoughts rather then simply actions? Isn't that an extension of the law built up upon the basis of the old law?

No its not, it is something completely separate and distinct.

Also… you can think whatever you want, how you act is important. You can think whatever you want, it is how you act. Heck, a Jew who hates following the commandments and does not like G-D but follows the commandments anyway is said to be a greater person then someone who loves to follow the commandments and loves G-D.

I never said signs, I never even said miracles. No sign of Jonah, or maybe there is, who knows. Perhaps the individual or group involved possesses such enormous wisdom that he persuades the whole world? Laser light shows need not be a part of it, though maybe they will be, who knows.

Why Jonah? Why does Christ pick on him and not Malachi? What about Jonah sets him apart from all the other prophets?

Jonah was not the only prophet who did not want to be a prophet, nor was he the only one who disobeyed G-D. I really do not see how he is unique… I suppose you could say because he was eaten by a whale but I doubt that is it heh.


Goodnight >< Now I have to wake up earlier to shave.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Christians are certain. That's the whole point of faith.

Looks like this is the reason why todays jews still are jews and not christians
(and why christians aren´t musilms btw. even though muslims believe in the same god and mohammed even recognized Yeshua as a prophet (but not son) of G-D )

[Robert]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Well, he was talking about religion. And for an atheist, religion is a purely theoretical construct. In the case of Christianty, it also has a supreme, omnipotent, perfect being.

If you were an atheist (or if you were believing in a religion where there is no perfect omnipotent being), I could understand your reaction. But as a Christian, you're supposed to believe in "a perfect solution somewhere". Heck, you made it clear that it's your belief in this very thread.

Well, you must read my 'perfect' comment in it's context. UR is looking for a perfect solution within his own reality, within his moral borders and within his view on ratio. Since we, humans, aren't omniscient we are not able to judge wheter something is true or false. We just don't know all the facts. As long as we humans aren't all-good we can't judge if something else is all-good or not. We just don't have the right definition of good.

It's silly that we, humans, who killed billions of other humans, are trying to judge God. It's like a serial murderer who tells that someone else is a murderer as well without knowing even 0.1% of the facts.