Questions about the Bible , I ask as I read

[Proteus_MST]

If appears to me that,
if said serial murderer sees another person murdering someone,
he is fully correct in calling the other person a murderer,
regardless of the fact the he himself, as serial murderer, murdered other persons, too.

[Robert]

if said serial murderer sees another person murdering someone

In simple situations, yes.
But what if the 'murderer' is the person who executes another murderer? Is the executer a murderer? The observer (serial murderer in this case) needs much more information. What if our serial killer saw that Adolph Hitler was killed before 1930? Things aren't that easy, for sure not if you don't have all information. With the information we have some would say that killing Hitler in the 30's would be a good thing.

Anyway: my point is, we cannot judge God because we're not all-good nor omniscient ourselves.

[Proteus_MST]

Looks like we have different opinions there.
Yes, technical speaking the executor is a murderer and this also applies even the person who would have mzurdered Hitler.

Or, as this is a thread of a bible:
Yes, both of them violate the 5th commandment, no matter if they´re about to kill someone who already killed another person or if they kill someone who, in the future kill millions.

(which is why we also differ in our view of god, at least the god who is described in the old testimony; because of the stories in the old testimony, I wouldn´t label said god with the attribute "all-good" )

[Vesayen]

The fifth commandment is not "You will not kill" it is "You will not murder".

Murder and kill have completley different meanings in Hebrew and in English.

[Flip McWho]

Aye, isn't murder unlawful killing.

Which is why all the crimes in the bible requiring a death wasn't really a contradiction.

So, the executioner isn't committing murder, assuming of course that the order came from a lawful source. If not, then the executioner would be a murderer. Now it depends on what you consider a lawful source. God? or the Political Authority?, things were easier when Kings ruled by divine right.

Cybershy,

I'm also guessing that with all-knowing you're meaning knowledge of the future as well

[Vesayen]

For Jews, not murdering is defined as the legal sources in the Torah.... which has not existed in centuries, the last Jewish entity which had the legitimate power to execute(the san hedren) has been gone for a *long* time. This means Jews can not end someone elses except in self defence.... can't be an executioner, even for a legitamite civic goverment.

I could not tell you what source non Jews have to look to.....its a big question, one I could not even try to answer.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Vesayen
For Jews, not murdering is defined as the legal sources in the Torah.... which has not existed in centuries, the last Jewish entity which had the legitimate power to execute(the san hedren) has been gone for a *long* time. This means Jews can not end someone elses except in self defence.... can't be an executioner, even for a legitamite civic goverment.

I could not tell you what source non Jews have to look to.....its a big question, one I could not even try to answer.

Do you know if this the state of israel has adopted this philosphy? I know it claims to be a "jewish state" but also it tried and executed Adolf Eichmann.

[Flip McWho]

That can be thought of as killing in self defense.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Vesayen
The fifth commandment is not "You will not kill" it is "You will not murder".

Murder and kill have completley different meanings in Hebrew and in English.

I heard this rationalisation a lot. However it seems that this is not supported by the original Hebrew.

[Proteus_MST]

That´s interesting,
obviously there are differences in the translations.

I don´t know what is generally taught in english speaking countries, but in german speaking countries the commandment is translated as "Du sollst nicht töten" (thou shalt not kill) and not as "Du sollst nicht morden" (thou shalt not murder)
and AFAIK both from the catholic as well as from the protestant church.

In the protestant small Catechism Dr. Martin Luther himself wrote:

Originally written by Dr. Martin Luther

Thou shalt not kill.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not hurt nor harm our neighbor in his body, but help and befriend him in every bodily need [in every need and danger of life and body].

(taken from: http://bookofconcord.org/smallcatech...encommandments
[but the german Version in my possession says the same])

Which can be interpreted (and is generally taught here) that there are no exceptions, no distinguishing between lawful and unlawful killings.

Perhaps this commandments can be seen one of the differences between Judaism and Christianity

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
That´s interesting,
obviously there are differences in the translations.

"Thou shalt not kill" is in the original KJV.

This posts a lot of problems for Christians (basically fundamentalists) trying to resolve contradictions found in the bible. So some of them decided it would be much easier to nudge the commandment to "Thou shalt not murder."

If you don't hold the bible as inerrant this is not a problem.

[Jon Miller]

Umm, Urban Ranger, you do know about translations, right?

Jon Miller
(or that as far as it goes, the KJV is thought to be *slightly* mistranslated)
(it was done earlier, and with less sources)

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Do you know if this the state of israel has adopted this philosphy? I know it claims to be a "jewish state" but also it tried and executed Adolf Eichmann.

Upon sleeping it over...... I want to specify that the view I shared was not a big Jewish view, but just something I was thinking of and even thinking it over night..... I no longer agree with it.

I am not going to try to say what justifies killing and makes it different from murder. I don't know what exists as a legitimate source of authority today..... whatever it is, if an Israeli court is a legitimate source, then so is an American one, Israel gets no special pass in this regard. I would lean towards Jews not being able to be executioners still though because it is too different from the rules set down on capital punishment.

Self defense, is self defense. Armys acting in self defense are completely legitimate for a Jew to serve in.



I do not recall if Israel has the death penalty anymore, but obviously it has an army.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I heard this rationalisation a lot. However it seems that this is not supported by the original Hebrew.

It is absolutely supported.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


"Thou shalt not kill" is in the original KJV.

This posts a lot of problems for Christians (basically fundamentalists) trying to resolve contradictions found in the bible. So some of them decided it would be much easier to nudge the commandment to "Thou shalt not murder."

If you don't hold the bible as inerrant this is not a problem.

Hebrew is not a dead language. It is "murder". They are wrong in the same way that saying 2 + 2 = 5. THis is not something open to interpretation or philosophical debate, it really IS murder.

Kings James bible is filled with mistranslations, some of them are probably intentional.

[Arrian]

Anyway: my point is, we cannot judge God because we're not all-good nor omniscient ourselves.

God is supposed to be better than us. Why is it wrong to hold him to a higher standard? Besides, we *do* judge our own criminals and such. But we can't judge God because...

Oh, right, because the whole thing comes tumbling down then.

The circular logic doesn't bother you? We can't judge God because he's God! If he does something bad it's not actually bad because it's God's Will! Round and round we go...

-Arrian

[Vesayen]

I think I can judge G-D and find him to be ethical.